Jason and the Argue-nauts

The epic true story of Maria Sirota's membership in the RKOP forum (rightkindofphrase.yuku.com), chronologically told by Maria herself.

Maria's comments are in red

In mid-January, 2008, while browsing some new designs on Threadless.com, I happened to bump into an announcement for a Jason Mraz t-shirt design contest, and decided to participate. Darn... me and my teenage fond memories of Jason... I should have known better then to get involved in something like this. As my Ukrainian friend says "sweet granny didn't have a headache, so she bought a piglet". Anyway, I participated, because I thought that I could, and thus should, be of some help.

This contest, including the conditions and results, was part of the "News" section on Jason Mraz's new website until March 19, 2008. It has since disappeared without a trace, probably because it abruptly became obsolete (unlike the rest of the "news", which dates back to February of 2007), and was of no importance, especially for the organizers of this contest (there were "650 submissions worldwide", as they bragged, but who cares?). As you can see now "no news is a good news" (for organizers), so it's gone for good, I suppose.

You don't need to be a prophet to have foreseen this happening, so I've saved all the contest information, and I can share it with anyone interested in my prophetless activity. The conditions of this contest are really special, and I suggest that whoever can should read them. Even non-contestants. Even now. Even out loud. Here's just a couple of quotes, I can't help myself:

WE ARE STEPPING OUT ON A LIMB AND SAYING WE HAVE THE MOST TALENTED FANS IN THE WORLD! HERE IS YOUR CHANCE TO PROVE US RIGHT (OR WRONG DEPENDING ON THE OUTCOME). THINK OF THIS AS AMERICAN IDOL MEETS PICASSO.

DESIGN SOME MERCH FOR MRAZ, SUBMIT IT TO THE CONTEST USING THIS HERE WEBSITE, AND THEN WAIT TO SEE IF YOUR DESIGN IS SELECTED AS A WINNER. IT REALLY IS THAT EASY!

TRUST US - WE KNOW HOW LONG IT CAN TAKE TO GET A DESIGN RIGHT!

However, you should bear the following quotes in mind to fully understand all the aspects of the upcoming story:

THERE IS NO LIMIT ON THE NUMBER OF DESIGNS THAT CAN BE SUBMITTED, AND THERE IS NO SET LIMIT ON THE NUMBER OF WINNERS. WE WILL BE SELECTIVELY PICKING WINNERS FROM VARIOUS REGIONS, BASED SOLELY ON QUALITY AND MARKETABILITY OF THE DESIGNS. SO IF YOUR DESIGN IS GOOD, AND WE THINK PEOPLE WILL LOVE IT, THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE YOU'LL BE ONE OF THE WINNERS!

Would you want YOUR name on something you didn't really like or felt ashamed to sell to people? Well neither does Jason!!!

How many winners will there be?
There's no limit! So if we get 20 GREAT designs, then we might have 20 winners! But if there's only 1, then there will only be one winner. SO, if you're design kicks butt, there's a good chance you'll be a winner!

1) Does my design really have to be original?
Yes!!!!!!!!

Am I really responsible for any legal trouble if I use a copyrighted image or someone else's art? Come on..
Look, it's stealing. Just don't do it. If something gets picked as a winner and it's later claimed as being misappropriated (with proof of course), then it's the winners responsibility to deal with any claims and damages.. it's really a bad scene when that type of thing happens, so let's just all keep our noses clean, ok? thanks!!!!

1) All designs *MUST* be original!
Any designs that are submitted and found to be someone else's work, a direct copy of an existing design by someone else, or include elements of someone else's art will be immediately disqualified.

Submissions must be awesome!
I mean, let's face it. your idea needs to kick butt if you want to win! So do some research.. put some thought into it.. WOW us!!

I submitted 10 designs, and I was pretty sure that at least a couple would be chosen, because their "quality and marketability" was obvious, and I planned to donate the rest, as they were custom made for Jason. I thought that some competent people (which are naturally expected to judge contests) would see the potential in what I submitted. Visual puns and some surrealistic ideas in my designs could further develop into colorful web animation (which I also would have done for free, in case of minimal appreciation and interest expressed).

On February 20, 2008, the winners were announced.

Here are the pictures of the winning designs:

No, no, there is nothing wrong with your computer, this is what the winning designs look like today. At the moment, any recollection of the contest winners evaporated along with the rest of the information about the contest, and cannot be found anywhere on the internet, no matter how well you search. I think these designs deserve to be added to "the mysteries of the world" list, together with UFOs, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness monster: many have seen them, but no one has their pictures.

So without describing the ghosts of the past, I can only say that its not clear why they were "handpicked by Jason himself". Not "solely based on quality and marketability", that's for sure. The choice of winners was just an open mockery to everybody, and not only couldn't I understand why he would do that to the people who participated and to all of his fans, but most importantly, I couldn't understand why he would do that to himself.

In search for the answer to my question, I went to Jason Mraz's official forum, and found that Jason's fans are not happy about his decision either:

Juggleboy720		#160
Posts: 365 (02/20/08 09:49 PM)	I would have thought that Polaroid one was a shoe-in. It was well-designed and ended up being quite timely with Polaroid stopping production of their film. I wonder if there was some sort of rights issue? I would have picked that one up for sure though. As is, I might buy the casette one, but that's it. Regardless, congrats to the winners. The "cassette one" is a "Retro Tape" design chosen as one of the winners, see further.

JillianATL		#163
Posts: 276 (02/20/08 10:59 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	wow...I'm super-disappointed with the decision....I like the cassette tape one, but you guys did sooooo much better!

emileigh23		#164
Posts: 1404 (02/20/08 11:06 PM) mraz makes me high	i would never wear any of those shirts. ever. who picked those things?

danielle702		#165
Posts: 4404 (02/20/08 11:08 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	Emily I agree.

emileigh23		#166
Posts: 1405 (02/20/08 11:11 PM) mraz makes me high	good thing i'm not a big jason-mraz-t-shirt-wearer. what does Mo think, i wonder? she's the queen of tshirts.

allie02044		#167
Posts: 225 (02/20/08 11:14 PM)	nope, not a fan.

rocketcat		#168
Posts: 7704 (02/20/08 11:20 PM) RKOP Abuser	hahahahahaha HAHAHA snort

pjsarefuzzy		#169
Posts: 230 (02/20/08 11:22 PM)	i like the cassette one, that's it. i feel bias saying that though since i submitted. rofl. how dissapointing. i was SURE that amanda's "i'm yours" shirt and the polaroid one was a shoe-in. maybe if they realize no ones buying em they'll pick new ones

The third person who likes the "Retro Tape" design.

hollyberry0312		#170
Posts: 3223 (02/20/08 11:58 PM) For the love of Jason and all things Holly!!	lets demand a re-count..... i agree with Em...I wouldn't buy any of those shirts. Not ONE reflects who Jason and his music is. This is the only suggestion, that I know of, to actually DO something about the community being displeased, not just talk about it aimlessly. However, there was no response to it.

geekinthe purple		#171
Posts: 2199 (02/21/08 12:03 AM) chillin out, maxin, relaxin	Im kind of glad I dont really like them I like having money in my bank account Jeannette

JulieBoolie909		#172
Posts: 731 (02/21/08 12:43 AM) picker/grinner/lover/sinner	im sure a lot of effort was put into the first two, i definitely couldnt do that.... but... they make me go, "what the fuck?" its just a bunch of shit thrown together that have no meaning... hmmph. i dont get it. i like the asteroids one but i wouldn't buy it. and whats with the quote one? def not Later, "what the fuck?" will be considered a POSITIVE type of reaction.

artjewl		#173
Posts: 45 (02/21/08 01:04 AM)	sigh. Yeah, I'm not so thrilled either. Aaron G. (first 2 designs) did a nice job, and the asteroids & cassette tape designs are cute, the dork quote still makes me half-laugh, but I wouldn't wear any of these. I guess I'll just have to make my own design(s) into my own custom t-shirt(s). Yay avery iron-on transfer sheets!

caprafan		#174
Posts: 1834 (03/22/66 04:03 PM) Special as in unique, or wears a helmet?	Sorry if the winners read here, but I'm not a fan either. Seems like another botched up contest from the label. Is there some kind of rights issue for someone to produce their own? Cause I would totally buy the Polaroid one. (Maybe for cost it would be okay, like the RKOP member shirt we never finished designing? ) Adrianne Let's blame the record label - an excellent scapegoat, isn't it? Some mysterious bad guys in suits are responsible for anything ridiculous happening to Jason.

MoMraz623		#175
Posts: 4187 (02/21/08 01:52 AM) Kiss on me tonight	First Shirt: what the fuck? (bear in mind) Since when did JasonMraz get associated with anime?? The second shirt: Um. Why is there a rainbow on his shirt again? As if the polaroid one wasn't enough. lets make him more gay. And what is with the "hello" I mean, HI! Why is it on my shirt? And is that a microwave? The Third Shirt: Is that supposed to be from Gypsy MC? The whole galga machine or w/e the fuck it is. I don't know. Not a fan. I mean I get that it's cool...in some way. But how is that Jason at all?? I think it's neat. But there were other submissions that fit Jason and his music WAY more. The last shirt: I mean. If I got it for a present I'd be pretty stoked. But I wouldn't go out and buy it. It almost seems too stereotypical of a musician to have a cassette tape on their shirt. I don't know. God there were so many great entires that didn't get chosen. I think that maybe if we hadn't seen so many great entires on here, we wouldn't be complaining so much. But it's the fact that out of all of our creative- music related designs, these were the ones that were chosen. Doesn't make sense. UGH!

olivemraz	yeah!	#176
Posts: 832 (02/21/08 01:53 AM)	i'm not a fan either. i'd want something i would actually wear. honestly, what happened to all of those song t-shirts from mr. a-z? surely, they weren't all sold. there must be a surplus and it got donated to somewhere far, far, away. i actually don't have any faith in these contests anymore. who runs these things anyway? the only one (that i know of) where you had a decent chance were the mr. a-z listening parties. you just had to answer some questions. okay, got that off of my chest. now to bed. when i get a chance i'll upload some of mine, might as well share.

youandibothlovejasonmraz		#177
Posts: 2923 (02/21/08 02:30 AM) She's a white girl ...in Chicago	it's not that the shirts suck... (well... i have to question that aaron guy on his first shirt. what were you thinking?) they are just not mraz type shirts. AAAAND i'm pretty sure that cassette one is rip off of another artist. the ones that i saw here were just so much more fitting and amazing. but i did see this in print, so there is still hope: PLEASE NOTE: Because there were so many great submissions, if you didn't win this time all hope is not lost! Throughout the year we will be referring back to all of the submissions and contacting new winners when new merch items are needed! Yay! Jason's email newsletter had an even funnier promise: "Thank you for all your wonderful submissions! If you didn't win this time around, don't get discouraged. There is a good chance we will be running more design contest in the future!"

The Coolest and Most Enlightened LJ		#178
Posts: 1169 (02/21/08 02:34 AM) you're the booty to my wang wang	AAAAND i'm pretty sure that cassette one is rip off of another artist. yea, pretty sure the cassette thing has been done before. too many times....

femmyme		#179
Posts: 1519 (02/21/08 02:42 AM) Not So Usual	bah. The ones here were better, and I'm not even talking about mine. (Did Jason really pick them?!) I like the Galaga one though - very creative.

tsubsa no kami		#180
Posts: 5 (02/21/08 02:48 AM)	They totally dont vibe with Mraz. He's very witty and i feel like those designs that picked while they are really beautiful, dont reflect him and his quirky soulfuness.. i think a lot of the ones on the forums hit closer to the spirit than these. " First Shirt: what the fuck? Since when did JasonMraz get associated with anime?? " < he wore a pink "otaku" shirt in geek in the pink? haha i don;t know! I think the tape cassette is cute, but someone else submitted a mic one that was similar. I don;t get the space-related one-- its like a hot-topic t-shirt. Both montage-sh ones are cool.. but what songs are they relating to? when is Mraz squiddy?? I know i submitted designs, and I do extend congradz to all the winners.. but like i would have thought that if Jason was really picking them himself he woulda gone for some that were more witty and dynamic- much like his music.-- not just.. uhm... eye candy?

tsubsa no kami		#181
Posts: 6 (02/21/08 02:51 AM)	youandibothlovejasonmraz wrote: but i did see this in print, so there is still hope: PLEASE NOTE: Because there were so many great submissions, if you didn't win this time all hope is not lost! Throughout the year we will be referring back to all of the submissions and contacting new winners when new merch items are needed! Yay! GOOD POINT~~!!!!

zeadus		#182
Posts: 3133 (02/21/08 03:02 AM) tittybangin'	everyone here should put their shirts up on cafepress.com so we can buy those instead

curlinote		#183
Posts: 413 (02/21/08 03:49 AM)	i don't like the casette one, like huh? i kinda like the galaga idea, but, it doesn't outrightly capture wht Mraz is abt. I don't get the first 2 shirts. The last one, hmmm...

femmyme		#184
Posts: 1521 (02/21/08 03:55 AM) Not So Usual	I wonder if he saw every one, or if someone else just sent him what they thought were "the best" ones? Congratulations to the winners anyway!

draagonfly		#185
Posts: 231 (03/22/30 03:03 PM)	Congrats to the winners. I think I'll stick to my Blend shirts tho. I was sad before that I didn't make the time to bring the ideas in my head to the screen, but after seeing the winning designs I'm glad I didn't waste my time. Either someone else did the picking or Mraz is a very different person than what I imagined from blogs & music. Things are not always what they seem, so I guess either scenario is possible. Edit to add: I totally would've bought the polaroid one. Very memorable, and highly marketable if you ask me. Edit again to add: Maybe these were chosen for overseas markets? I know we Americans sometimes forget we're not the only ones on the globe and taste does vary widely between countries and cultures. And he is touring elsewhere first. Just a thought.

To my knowledge, this is the only post in the whole forum which questions, however timidly, Jason's integrity.

SkillToGoCommando		#189
Posts: 337 (02/21/08 11:25 AM)	1) Thanks for the Polaroid love. It means alot that you guys liked it. 2)Cafepress is actually a great idea but I don't know if there are any rights issues since I submitted the design to them. I think that gives up the rights. Also, that might disqualify it from being picked later, even though it probably won't be picked later anyway. 3) I'm still shocked that none of the designs in here won. I just went back and looked at everyone's and they really are amazing. ugh, it's so frustrating. ETA: I'm pretty sure he was not shown all of the 600 designs. It is very possible that he didn't even see the ones posted on here. ....and that make me sad. Another attempt to somehow justify Jason.

It was noticeable to me that people in this forum influence each other in their preferences, but still, my first impression of RKOP was that Jason's fans do not automatically and thoughtlessly accept anything that originates from him (of course my first impression turned out to be somewhat different from the last one). I decided to join RKOP.

MariaSirota		#192
Posts: 1 (02/21/08 03:33 PM)	I'm new to the board, and I was pleasantly surprised to find this page. It's nice to know that there's still some sanity around Jason Mraz, which the decisions of the latest design contest would bring one to doubt. I'm a professional artist and designer, and I happened to participate in this contest. It's unusual for a professional to compete like this, especially for a lousy $400. However, I did it because I like Jason. And now I like you guys, so I want to share my submissions with you. As you remember, the request was the less color, the better. So I used 2 colors against a background in all my designs. Anything less than 2 is too dull. "Change of Heart" "J Song" "I Hear Mraz" "Day Watch" "Cock A Dude'll Do" "Upbeat" "MySpace" "TGIF the 13th" "UniqueCorn" "Play and Paws"

emileigh23		#193
Posts: 1410 (02/21/08 03:45 PM) mraz makes me high	i adore your first design!

lavender rose 99		#194
Posts: 4564 (02/21/08 03:48 PM) Self-proclaimed Anglophile	Ooh, I really like your first one as well. I don't particularly like the winning designs, and seeing that none of yours or the others posted in here won baffles me. Ahh well, that's only my opinion.

JamieJamMrazFan		#195
Posts: 2535 (02/21/08 03:53 PM) Worms on a motherfuckin' plane!!	I agree with Em, I love your first design, Maria!!! It's truely disappointing that some of the great ones that were posted in here didn't win. Hopefully we'll see some of these win during the next round of the contest!!

rocketcat		#196
Posts: 7706 (02/21/08 04:11 PM) RKOP Abuser	Yup. The first one's a winner. Clearly, they should have let US decide, seeing as we're the ones buying them. ETA: I'm pretty sure he was not shown all of the 600 designs. It is very possible that he didn't even see the ones posted on here. I'm working under the assumption that we weren't lied to, and Jason did choose those shirts. I find it riotously funny -- mostly by trying to figure out exactly what he was smoking at the time (and where I can get me some). I'll make you a deal, J: I'll wear them if YOU'll wear them.* *That's a big, fat lie. I don't wear clothing with writing on it. This post can easily be interpreted as an insult to Jason, yet nobody jumped on Cat in his "defense".

northstar98		#197
Posts: 718 (02/21/08 04:18 PM)	yeah i'm not digging the winner designs either. i really loved the ones that were posted here! slightly disappointed

Mark Beasley		#198
Posts: 38 (02/21/08 04:40 PM)	WOW that change of heart one is amazing! seriously im blown away

femmyme		#199
Posts: 1524 (02/21/08 05:35 PM) Not So Usual	maybe we will have to resurrect the t-shirt fundraising thread.... hmmmm.... I'd rather my artwork go to a good cause.

MikeBruski		#200
Posts: 3730 (02/21/08 07:56 PM) The Original Bruski	i'm not gonna sugercoat my post ( when do i ever?) the winning designs suck big time IMO. They're not clean, messy, not 100% in J's musical spirit, too random, and seem more like "cover your eyes and point at one" decisions. Its rather sad that one dude wins two tees. 650 people worldwide participated, and you let one dude get two shirts.. on top of that, not really good ones? meh... (Quite harsh, isn't it?) After seeing some of the designs here, i'm even more dissapointed (i didnt open this thread untill after i saw what won). Both of the Polaroid ones are awesome. Amanda and Maria's designs are astonishing, with the standouts being "I'm internationally yours" and "Change of Heart" . Thats your 3 winners right there. Cafepress has copyright issues. J's likeness and image are illegal to reproduce for a profit, so unless you edit out his name, pictures, lyrics to songs and other things directly related to him, you won't be able to (legally) sell them. But i would SO love those in sale. Off the bat! I wish i had time to participate. I had to make a pit stop in San Diego/NY/Vegas/etc.. which clearly took waaay too much of my time. Silly me... Bruski--\| Oh, and Leeeyon, usually it takes me less than a minute for each of these... much like sex...

Juggleboy720		#201
Posts: 367 (02/21/08 09:21 PM)	Maria, I can't stop looking at the Change of Heart design, it's just awesome. Great titles on all the designs by the way.

curlinote		#202
Posts: 414 (02/21/08 09:27 PM)	DID SOMEONE JUST HIJACK THE COMPUTER NETWORK OR SOMETHING? THERE has TO BE SOME GLITCH SOMEONE....

tsubsa no kami		#203
Posts: 7 (02/21/08 09:52 PM)	"9) Does Mraz really pick the winners?! Yes! Jason has hand picked ever piece of merchandise ever created for him, and will continue to do so as long as his name is on the door! With the help of his management team, Jason will pick the winner of this contest as well based on what he thinks best represents him and the style he wants to offer to his fans." I think they prolly showed him thier top 10 or 20. Maybe they are going to match a new site re-design or something in the works?

jasonmrazlover		#204
Posts: 493 (02/21/08 09:53 PM)	WOWZER MARIA!!! I LOVE the change of hearts! you submitted that? and he DIDN'T FREAKING CHOOSE IT!?!?!?! WTF?!?! amazing job nonetheless. This can also be interpreted as an insult to Jason.

SkillToGoCommando		#205
Posts: 340 (02/21/08 11:13 PM)	Amazing job Maria! the change of hearts one is really great.

Redleggirl		#206
Posts: 244 (02/22/08 12:51 AM)	I love the change of hears one as well! It's beautiful! If anyone figures out how we can get it on a shirt without getting into trouble I'll gladly buy one! The polaroid one was awesome too! Seriously!? How did they not pick these?!?!?

beenie66		#207
Posts: 3645 (02/22/08 09:40 AM) Older Lover in Canada	The change of heart is very cool! and I love the J Song too. I really do like all of the designs that have been posted here. Tina

MariaSirota		At this time, I started noticing that the decisions about the contest were symptomatic of Jason's current state of mind. So here is my second post. #208
Posts: 2 (02/22/08 04:18 PM)	The easiest thing on earth is to criticize, and although I am very encouraged by people's reactions (thank you guys), I'm still not in a position to be too judgmental about the works of the "winners". There's just one thing I cannot keep silent about. I noticed that some people expressed the desire to buy the "Retro Tape" t-shirt. However, some say they are confident that this design had been used before, and more than once. Of course they are right, but I'm afraid even they don't realize TO WHAT EXTENT. Not to mention writing with tape, rope, wires, cords, plane exhaust, water hose, dental floss, shoe laces, fruit by the foot, etc. (and not to mention Jason's t-shirt of that sort) the design with the cassette tape is about as "retro" as cassette tapes themselves. http://stores.musictoday.com/store/product.asp?band_id=380&dept_id=879&pf_id=NCCT35&sfid=2 http://merchnow.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FBMF&Product_Code=FEARBEFORE:FRBTPE-T&Category_Code=SHIRTS&Product_Count=21 http://www.popularchristian.com/product_info.php?products_id=21227 http://www.elsewares.com/commerce/Rewind-T-Shirt_MPD881.html http://www.inertia-music.com/catalogue/33979/Cassette_Boy/Micks_Tape/ These are just a handful of examples. If somebody decided to compile a history of this image, it would require a whole new website devoted solely to it. And... "*All designs MUST* be original!** Any designs that are submitted and found to be someone else's work, a direct copy of an existing design by someone else, or include elements of someone else's art will be immediately disqualified... If such a design is submitted, is not caught by us, and is selected as a winner, any legal repercussions that follow from the original content owner will be the sole responsibility of the designer..." If Jason goes ahead with multiplying, promoting, and selling this image, not only can there be a lawsuit, but by now it might very well be a class-action. Another quote: "... Jason will pick the winner of this contest as well based on what he thinks best represents him and the style he wants to offer to his fans." So how does this apply to the "Retro Tape"? Oh right! We sing, we dance, we STEAL THINGS. By the way, Jason is already taking advantage of the alleged copy-write to this image. Here is his latest...uh... let's call it merch. http://freshnessfactorfivethousand.blogspot.com/2008/02/go-with-snow.html WOW! WHAT A MASTERPISS!! To those still wishing to buy a design by a weener... oops, I mean winner, the logical solution might be to put on a plain t-shirt, come to Jason, and ask for an autograph.

rocketcat		Now, here is the first attempt to "put me in my place". #209
Posts: 7718 (02/22/08 11:59 PM) RKOP Abuser	If Jason goes ahead with multiplying, promoting, and selling this image, not only can there be a lawsuit, but by now it might very well be a class-action. I doubt that's true, actually. I suspect the ubiquity of the cassette tape gimmick is what will save it from copyright infringement. It's a different-enough design of an often-used metaphor. But what do I know...? The terminology Cat used to formulate her opinion, in this context, sounds almost funny. However, I can say she is one of the smartest in the forum, and unlike some other members, she understands her own writing. Nevertheless, in spite of "what do I know?" (a ritual modesty), this verdict-like post is written in a way that excludes even a supposition of any further argument. Yet, I dared...

Mark Beasley		#210
Posts: 44 (02/23/08 12:04 AM)	i second that. nobody owns exclusive rights to cassette tapes.. it's the specific design This is my first encounter with the refined intellectuality of Mr. Beasley.

tsubsa no kami		#211
Posts: 8 (02/23/08 02:02 AM)	yeah.. but either way its not "original" i seriously think ive seen that spacey one in hot-topic before!!

artjewl		#212
Posts: 48 (02/23/08 11:47 AM)	tsubsa no kami wrote: yeah.. but either way its not "original" i seriously think ive seen that spacey one in hot-topic before!! I agree completely. Here are 2 of my 3 entries (I still can't seem to upload the 3rd for some reason). This girlie top was designed kinda in hopes of "Butterfly" being on the new album... and the fact that I wanted to do something pretty. I'm going to make this one for myself, I think. ...and this more masculine design came from a journal comments of his referring to the new album being "soul/folk album for robots" and at another point saying the album would be titled "San Disco, California." Granted, I think both of those comments came before the album was reworked/finalized. Still, I was hoping to appeal to his Robot/Folk-Rock/Disco sensibilities... thus, the "robotfolkdisco" design below... Maybe tuesday or so I'll finally get to post my last (and most inane and kind of a joke) design.

JillianATL		#213
Posts: 307 (02/23/08 04:09 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	I love your butterfly shirt -- that's sooooo pretty!!

MariaSirota		#214
Posts: 3 (02/23/08 05:57 PM)	rocketcat wrote: If Jason goes ahead with multiplying, promoting, and selling this image, not only can there be a lawsuit, but by now it might very well be a class-action. I doubt that's true, actually. I suspect the ubiquity of the cassette tape gimmick is what will save it from copyright infringement. It's a different-enough design of an often-used metaphor. But what do I know...? Cat, do you honestly think that this design is different ENOUGH?! Can you please elaborate on what actually makes a difference, and whether this difference is conceptual or decorative? Help me out. What is it: a disoriented composition with a messy center? Jason's unreadable name in the armpit? A junior high school level of execution? What? It seems my sarcastic statement about a possible class-action suit was understood too literally. However, all jokes aside, for those who consider me naive and somewhat ignorant, and for people who are not familiar with the legal racket, let me seriously explain what can happen, and usually happens, under similar circumstances in our litigious country, which inhabits 5% of the world's population and 70% of the world's lawyers. Let's assume that Jason, in spite of all warnings, stubbornly proceeds with producing, promoting, and selling the "Retro Tape" t-shirts (Let's not forget, Jason's not an average Joe, who nobody gives a crap about. He's considered a celebrity, which makes him a juicy prey for gold diggers, competition, enemies, and media). The most probable scenario is the following: Somebody (like Nickel Creek, for example, who probably have lawyers on their payroll and like to keep them busy) finds out that "their" design is circulating as an attribute to Jason Mraz.They will start with a warning letter from their lawyer, of course, but if Jason argues their claim and still continues, it's more than likely that they file a suit against Jason Mraz as an individual, Jason Mraz as an entity, all the entities and parties which directly or indirectly gain from the sales and promotion of these shirts (which can include lounges and concert halls that he performs in), all the individuals who might be involved, John Doe, and Jane Doe. The plaintiff doesn't need to prove that it's their original design, it's enough to prove that they were predecessors. In any case, there is no chance that the court will dismiss this case as frivolous. In their suit, they will state that the damage caused to them by the defendants is hard or impossible to estimate, so the amount of compensation should be decided by the court, but can be no less than... (usually some ridiculous amount). The purpose of such a claim is that nobody can afford to get into default, ignoring the suit. And let's not forget that Jason has no grounds for a counter-suit, which means that in any case, he will end up losing. What should also be clearly understood is that the indemnification statements that are part of the terms and conditions of the contest, although they save one from being skinned alive, would still not prevent him from being legally harassed. Especially if this "design" is not presented as just some casual merchandise, but as something special -- the winner of the design contest. The very first motion the plaintiff will make is the request for "immediate relief", which the judge would definitely grant, ordering the cessation of direct or indirect distribution of the item in question for the whole period of the dispute (we are talking years). Another motion (I think there were some precedents already) could be that because the author of the design in question, although agreeing to indemnification, was preliminarily outside of the jurisdiction of American courts, the responsibility should be fully transferred to the rest of the defendants. Should I go on? As a matter of fact, I'm not sure whether Jason has a lawyer of his own. Judging on the conditions of the contest and on the mere fact that out of 650 "great", "wonderful", "fabulous" submissions that "blew his team away" (I wish), he purchased only 5, his financial situation leaves much to be desired. But if, God forbid, he doesn't have a lawyer, and still plunges into such an adventure, then he would have to hire one for the litigation (an entity can only be represented by a lawyer in court), and it will cost him approximately the same amount as the contest prize. Per hour.

rocketcat		#216
Posts: 7719 (02/23/08 06:32 PM) RKOP Abuser	Cat, do you honestly think that this design is different ENOUGH?! Yup Can you please elaborate on what actually makes a difference, and whether this difference is conceptual or decorative? Help me out. What is it: a disoriented composition with a messy center? Jason's unreadable name in the armpit? A junior high school level of execution? What? The design does not actually reuse any prior art. It doesn't even say the same thing. There is no reason to believe that the existence of this new design would have any affect at all on the sales of Nickelback or Creek or whatever's T-shirt.(it's not just about "sales" - it's about "image" and "promotion") And I have no evidence that the other designs you cite have copyright protection. Having said that -- and although I don't really understand what Jason's having selected 5 winners has to do with his financial situation (a deliberate contortion of my words to make them sound ridiculous)-- I'm not a lawyer and I suppose we're better safe than sorry. If you feel that strongly about it, I'm sure Jason won't sell it.

youandibothlovejasonmraz		#217
Posts: 2925 (02/23/08 07:27 PM) She's a white girl ...in Chicago	to sum up everything: the shirts are shitty, which sucks for everyone Not just for contestants, but FOR EVERYONE!

MariaSirota		#218
Posts: 4 (02/23/08 08:07 PM)	rocketcat wrote: Cat, do you honestly think that this design is different ENOUGH?! Yup Can you please elaborate on what actually makes a difference, and whether this difference is conceptual or decorative? Help me out. What is it: a disoriented composition with a messy center? Jason's unreadable name in the armpit? A junior high school level of execution? What? The design does not actually reuse any prior art. It doesn't even say the same thing. There is no reason to believe that the existence of this new design would have any affect at all on the sales of Nickelback or Creek or whatever's T-shirt. And I have no evidence that the other designs you cite have copyright protection. Having said that -- and although I don't really understand what Jason's having selected 5 winners has to do with his financial situation -- I'm not a lawyer and I suppose we're better safe than sorry. If you feel that strongly about it, I'm sure Jason won't sell it. Nope. It's not different. It would definitely be considered plagiarism in any court of law. I thought there's no need to prove the obvious, but I have no choice. Out of mere respect, I have to explain more profoundly. The difference can be either conceptual or decorative. Which means: the descriptive comparison between 2 objects of commercial art should be principally different. For example, the concept of the samples I presented previously is the same, and can be described in the following way: "the presentation of a music related message made in script-like form using unwound tape from an audio cassette". Would you describe the concept of "Retro Tape" differently (besides "it doesn't even say the same thing!")? The decorative difference means that the same concept is executed in some radically new and inventive stylistic application. So can you please tell me what it is? A copy-write in the sphere of visual arts, in most cases, is not defined by formal registration, but solely by the criteria of primary publication. It's first come, first serve. What most people do these days is send themselves a properly dated message. This is the only thing you need to prove your priority, and thus the copy-write. And you know what, you don't need to be a lawyer to know this. Jason's selection of 5 winners has nothing to do with his financial situation. I agree. But that's not what I wrote. My concern was about the conditions of the contest (which were- "the cheaper, the better") and about the fact that some excellent work (for example, the latest post of artjewl, professional and in good taste) was not purchased for a measly $400, not even "just in case". Maybe it doesn't mean much. I hope not. Maybe the explanation lies in what you very wittily "assumed" on page 20. Maybe... No, I don't feel that strongly about it. I feel rather weak, actually. Even helpless. Is there any way to prevent Jason from continuously embarrassing himself and all of us together with him?

I'm not sure whether people of this forum actually read and understood the information I shared, but it looks like the mere fact that I didn't submit to the "authorities", and continued arguing, became annoying for some of them. So here is another attempt to "put me in my place".

JillianATL		#219
Posts: 313 (02/23/08 08:28 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	MariaSirota wrote: Nope. It's not different. It would definitely be considered plagiarism in any court of law. I thought there's no need to prove the obvious, but I have no choice. Out of mere respect, I have to explain more profoundly. The difference can be either conceptual or decorative. Which means: the descriptive comparison between 2 objects of commercial art should be principally different. For example, the concept of the samples I presented previously is the same, and can be described in the following way: "the presentation of a music related message made in script-like form using unwound tape from an audio cassette". Would you describe the concept of "Retro Tape" differently (besides "it doesn't even say the same thing!")? The decorative difference means that the same concept is executed in some radically new and inventive stylistic application. So can you please tell me what it is? A copy-write in the sphere of visual arts, in most cases, is not defined by formal registration, but solely by the criteria of primary publication. It's first come, first serve. What most people do these days is send themselves a properly dated message. This is the only thing you need to prove your priority, and thus the copy-write. And you know what, you don't need to be a lawyer to know this. Jason's selection of 5 winners has nothing to do with his financial situation. I agree. But that's not what I wrote. My concern was about the conditions of the contest (which were- "the cheaper, the better") and about the fact that some excellent work (for example, the latest post of artjewl, professional and in good taste) was not purchased for a measly $400, not even "just in case". Maybe it doesn't mean much. I hope not. Maybe the explanation lies in what you very wittily "assumed" on page 20. Maybe... No, I don't feel that strongly about it. I feel rather weak, actually. Even helpless. Is there any way to prevent Jason from continuously embarrassing himself and all of us together with him? Okay...I guess I'm gonna have to step up here. disclaimer even though I spent 3 years in law school and 3 months studying for the bar exam (which I take in 3 days yikes!), this is NOT a formal legal opinion and should not be relied upon!! (Just think about these two phrases in the same context: she's ultimately confident and ultimately irresponsible. At the same time! How professional!) First...with regard to the other cassette tape designs, do we know for sure that those designs have in fact been copyrighted? (not copy-writed). If they are not, then this whole discussion is completely moot. Secondly, it's a very broad statement to say that it would be considered "plagarism" in any court of law. Well, first it wouldn't be plagarism. Plagarism is a comletely different animal from copyright infringment. Plagarism, while is can be applied to creative works, is most aptly applied to works of writing. But, most importantly, plagarism is the act of producing something and claiming that it is your own - that would not be the case in this situation. Secondly, if an action were to go to court, you cannot say definitively that it would or would not be considered a copyright infringement. That is a fact finding issue for the jury. As far as the copyright of a creative work....all that is required is that the creative work must be original. And that is defined as independently created by the author (that is, the holder of the copyright). It is irrelevant how close the author's creation is to existing works, as long as the author did not directly copy his work from another. Moreover, ideas themselves are not copyrightable. So, the idea of putting a cassette tape on a shirt to advertise a music artist is not copyrightable. Only each individual artist's creative work is able to be copyrighted. Okay....I guess that's all I have to say for now.

rocketcat		#220
Posts: 7721 (02/23/08 08:35 PM) RKOP Abuser	No, I don't feel that strongly about it. I feel rather weak, actually. Even helpless. Your writing creates a different impression. In me, at least... Is there any way to prevent Jason from continuously embarrassing himself and all of us together with him? Probably not. But to my point just above, I don't actually consider Jason's choice of t-shirt embarrassing to himself, let alone to me or his other fans. I don't think he embarrasses himself continuously -- that's quite hard to achieve and should be left to experts like me. (humor) So from now on, lets agree that if someone laughs and "snorts" (see post #168), it doesn't mean there is something embarrassing to laugh at. And when someone says "Word" about MoKat72's "It's a damn sight better than seeing his name written in the snow in pee", it doesn't mean anything at all.

jtrbabbitt		#221
Posts: 706 (02/23/08 08:41 PM)	hahahahaha....I love Cat. Now that I have posted here, the thread has officially been killed. That's it...go home. "Go home", of course, is addressed to me. Cat's "argument" is interpreted as the winning one. Bear in mind jtrbabbit's first laughter, it's not the last one.

MariaSirota		#222
Posts: 5 (02/24/08 12:25 AM)	Since you stepped up Jill, I think I'll have to follow your step. I'm not a lawyer. The closest I come to a bar exam is "how much can you hold and still walk in a strait line?" (I wish you the best of luck in your bar exam though). And my only disclaimer is that I'm in the business of copywriting, besides other things, which is the reason for a ridiculous typo made by force of habit, even while answering a post where the term, spelled correctly, is used repeatedly. I hope you don't suspect that I didn't know or didn't understand. However, I promise not to rush, and be more attentive. So... Let me repeat, you don't need to be a lawyer to understand, and to see the forest behind the trees. First...with regard to the other cassette tape designs, do we know for sure that those designs have in fact been copyrighted? (not copy-writed). If they are not, then this whole discussion is completely moot. First... if we don't know for sure, then this discussion is FAR from being moot. Not to mention that it's rather irrelevant whether they have a copyright or not. Their priority to the work is enough. Secondly, it's a very broad statement (well, I am a broad, you know) to say that it would be considered "plagarism" in any court of law. Secondly, it's plagiarism, not plagarism (sorry).Well, first it wouldn't be plagarism. Plagarism is a comletely different animal from copyright infringment. Not to change the subject from copyrights to animal rights, let me state that nobody claimed that plagiarism, which is "implying original authorship of someone else's creative work, in whole or IN PART, into one's own without adequate acknowledgement" and copyright infringement is one and the same thing. In this case, however, the lawsuit can be for either one, or both. Plagarism, while is can be applied to creative works, is most aptly applied to works of writing. Exactly. But "most aptly" doesn't mean "always". And if plagiarism is not applicable, then what is? However, it is applicable, and being constantly applied. Check. But, most importantly, plagarism is the act of producing something (It's not "producing", it's STEALING) and claiming that it is your own - that would not be the case in this situation. AND WHY NOT? If you steal a car and re-paint it, would it be considered a different car? Secondly, if an action were to go to court, you cannot say definitively that it would or would not be considered a copyright infringement. (I was talking about plagiarism, not copyright infringement) That is a fact finding issue for the jury. Yes. And in case of a jury (if both parties agree to it) the decision is even more predictable, because they will most likely reject all the legal demagogy, and simply put two and two together. It's the same image, and it shows. As far as the copyright of a creative work....all that is required is that the creative work must be original. And that is defined as independently created by the author (that is, the holder of the copyright). It is irrelevant how close the author's creation is to existing works, as long as the author did not directly copy his work from another. "How close" is not only relevant, it's EXTREMELY relevant. If you disagree, please provide the exact legal quote which literally states that "how close" is irrelevant as long as it's not identical. By the way, what are you arguing with? In this case, it's a direct copy. Moreover, ideas themselves are not copyrightable. So, the idea of putting a cassette tape on a shirt to advertise a music artist is not copyrightable. Only each individual artist's creative work is able to be copyrighted. Yes, an idea is not copyrightable. If one person tells another how great it would be if... (and illustrates his words with hand gestures), it would still be a non-copyrightable idea. However, if someone visualizes it and implements it with any kind of creative media, it stops being an idea and becomes an IMAGE, which is copyrightable, and whoever does it first obtains the ownership, even if they give it away left and right. But wait a minute, I'm breaking through an already open door. Here's a quote from the terms and conditions of our notorious t-shirt contest referring to ROYALTY-FREE clip-art or stock photo images available for public usage, which of course include all sorts of graphic art as well (they are not even talking about images that aren't offered for copying to anybody ever): "...using these types of ASSETS in this contest will violate the image copyrights ...and will put BOTH of us (in spirte of all the indemnifications) at risk for additional licensing fees or LEGAL ACTION... PLEASE keep it original!" Seems to me that it's written by someone who has already passed the bar exam.

geekinthe purple		#223
Posts: 2228 (02/24/08 12:32 AM) chillin out, maxin, relaxin	jtrbabbitt wrote: hahahahaha....I love Cat. Now that I have posted here, the thread has officially been killed. That's it...go home. If only.... Jeannette Look, this is how much I bother Jeannette by just answering Jillian. She is seriously annoyed with a conversation she's not even involved in, and which I doubt she even comprehends.

ATTENTION: the first direct, personal attack on me.

Mark Beasley		#224
Posts: 47 (02/24/08 12:51 AM)	MariaSirota wrote: It seems my sarcastic statement about a possible class-action suit was understood too literally. if you were just being sarcastic, why are you still trying to prove to us that it could happen? (He definitely doesn't understand what the term "class-action suit" means.) just let it go! being angry at jason because you thought you should have won isn't going to change the results. i think you have a terrible attitude, but if it makes you feel better, i still really like that heart design

MariaSirota		#225
Posts: 6 (02/24/08 01:14 AM)	Mark Beasley wrote: MariaSirota wrote: It seems my sarcastic statement about a possible class-action suit was understood too literally. if you were just being sarcastic, why are you still trying to prove to us that it could happen? just let it go! being angry at jason because you thought you should have won isn't going to change the results. i think you have a terrible attitude, but if it makes you feel better, i still really like that heart design Mark, As you could have noticed, I'm only answering the arguments addressed to me, which are not always so delicate (just read your post, for example). However, it doesn't matter whether I'm angry at Jason or not. It's better to be angry than dumb. I'm not the suffering party here, Jason is. These 5 "winners" make him a loser. And this is the result I want to change. For him and for all of us.

femmyme		#226
Posts: 1528 (02/24/08 01:36 AM) Not So Usual	The t-shirt contest was all in good fun. Hopefully nobody who submitted designs expected to win (I didn't). Is it disappointing and conflustering that the winning designs were in most ways inferior to the ones that were NOT picked? Absolutely. Nobody owns a copyright on the "analog tape used as writing" design concept so there will be no lawsuit. That it has been done to death is just part of the overall suckiness of this contest outcome. Over spring break I will work on morphing one of my designs so we can use it as an RKOP fundraiser (with no Jason likeness)... most likely the "I'm Yours" one because that was a lot of work to get those all translated! Maybe the beneficiary can be the San Diego fire relief fund. I think I can do it with PayPal this time. Who is with me? be cool my babies, Amanda

Mark Beasley		#227
Posts: 48 (02/24/08 01:43 AM)	MariaSirota wrote: I'm not the suffering party here, Jason is. These 5 "winners" make him a loser. look, coming onto the jason mraz forum and calling him names isn't going to help your cause. others on this thread had designs that were worthy of winning as well, and you might notice that they aren't on here bickering and threatening lawsuits. (!!) the winners have been chosen, complaining isn't going to get you anywhere. i got top score on donkey kong so MOVE ON! What he means (and will repeat several times in different places later on) is that I allegedly called Jason a "loser". At this same time, Jasonmrazlover bombarded me with emails containing the same accusation (besides other things). Here is a fragment from my answer to her: "I'm afraid you still need to work on your comprehension skills. In English, when you say "make him", it means "he is not yet". In other words, it means "he can look like", "people can get this impression about him". It's clear for anybody who reads without prejudice. Especially as I wrote "this is the result I want to change. For him and for all of us." If I wanted to call somebody a loser, I would."

MariaSirota		#228
Posts: 7 (02/24/08 01:56 AM)	Mark Beasley wrote: MariaSirota wrote: I'm not the suffering party here, Jason is. These 5 "winners" make him a loser. look, coming onto the jason mraz forum and calling him names isn't going to help your cause. others on this thread had designs that were worthy of winning as well, and you might notice that they aren't on here bickering and threatening lawsuits. the winners have been chosen, complaining isn't going to get you anywhere. i got top score on donkey kong so MOVE ON! Mark, Again, it's not about me not getting anywhere. It's about some people just NOT GETTING.

jtrbabbitt		#229
Posts: 707 (02/24/08 02:07 AM)	Children, sit on your hands. I myself have been guilty of getting too involved in these discussions, and I promise you, NO GOOD CAN COME FROM IT. It's true. But I wouldn't mind getting back to the more general theme of "These shirts bite." 'Cause they do. edit to add...Not that I could even begin to create one myself, of course.

emileigh23		#230
Posts: 1421 (02/24/08 02:14 AM) mraz makes me high	i have a hairy armpit. This is her way of changing the subject. And as it was placed almost right after my post, it's clearly an insult directed to me.

jtrbabbitt		#231
Posts: 708 (02/24/08 02:19 AM)	...snort! jtrbabbit approves...

loodleloodlelay		#232
Posts: 6540 (02/24/08 02:31 AM) i've switched to snark-lite.	i really loved maria's heart beat one. and the polaroid one that we all love.

draagonfly		#233
Posts: 235 (02/24/08 04:11 AM)	i really loved maria's heart beat one. and the polaroid one that we all love. Amen! Those were cool designs. Maybe they'll be picked later for the American tour. I thought this "Amen" would put a stop to the "Anti-Maria Campaign", and I would be left alone. "If only..."

Juggleboy720		#234
Posts: 374 (02/24/08 05:24 AM)	I'm just sayin' Seriously though, I'm hoping there will be other rockin' merch at the shows this spring/summer since it seems there are no t-shirts in my future. I may end up having to spend my money on the EPs anyway depending on how that all shakes out. As I found out, talking about cheese is the code unknown to newbies and used by RKOP members as an expression of contempt towards an unwelcome one.

danielle702		#235
Posts: 4434 (02/24/08 12:11 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	I really love that Cheese shirt. But I am kinda wishy washy about cheese with holes. I really like Amanda's shirts best. ("not yours, Maria! na-na-na-poo-poo!")

JillianATL		#236
Posts: 316 (02/24/08 12:23 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	I like cheese too.... cheddar, colby, swiss..... So Jillian joins the game. Great argument.

rocketcat		#237
Posts: 7723 (02/24/08 12:39 PM) RKOP Abuser	jtrbabbitt wrote: hahahahaha....I love Cat. Now that I have posted here, the thread has officially been killed. That's it...go home. Best thread ending. Ever. I was going to post that last night but I didn't want to ruin it. If I were a mod I would have locked it, just for fun. This is quite a CATTY remark. What a nice attempt to still prevail.

JillianATL		#238
Posts: 317 (02/24/08 12:46 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	Maria, I appreciate your good thoughts as I take the bar exam. First... if we don't know for sure, then this discussion is FAR from being moot. Not to mention that it's rather irrelevant whether they have a copyright or not. Their priority to the work is enough. While it is true that an original expression is copyrighted automatically once it is fixed in tangible form, the recording of the copyright provides the required notice to prevent the use of the defense of the "innocent infringer" defense. Just re-read this part attentively. Comments are unnecessary. "How close" is not only relevant, it's EXTREMELY relevant. If you disagree, please provide the exact legal quote which literally states that "how close" is irrelevant as long as it's not identical. From the U.S. Copyright Office: The requirement of originality means simply that the work may not have been copied from someone else. Because the free exchange of ideas is an essential element of a democratic society, ideas themselves cannot be monopolized via the copyright laws. It is only the artist's particular expression of his or her ideas which may be protected. Therefore, it is permissible under the copyright laws for someone to express the same ideas to others, even when the ideas used represent a new concept, developed by another author. For example, if one artist is known for his original works of art depicting, for example, penguins in tuxedos, it is probably not an infringement of copyright for someone else to copy the theme of penguins in tuxedos. (or in this case...cassette tapes on t-shirts) She doesn't provide the exact source of the citation, and judging by her use of language, it's obvious that this is not the exact quote. However, she doesn't even comprehend her own writing. Her understanding is similar to Mark Beasly's "nobody owns exclusive rights to cassette tapes". I don't see how it can be argued that plagarism would be applicable in this scenario. Plagarism would be a case where the creators of these designs came forward and said those previous designs are my designs. That is not the case here. They are simply using an idea and creating a work of art using the same idea. A small detail - even after I corrected her misspelling of "plagiarism", she still continues writing it her way. Just read the definition of plagiarism I provided in my post #222, and think for a minute about what she writes. Delirium doesn't begin to describe it. This person is supposed to represent other people in crucial situations. Think about that too. Cheers!! I'm off to study things that will be on my bar exam (like secured transactions and commercial paper and non-monetary remedies....) EDIT: edited to apologize to all of my RKOP friends for getting into this quagmire....I'm done....and with that I'll just say -- Danielle -- cheese with holes in it is aaaawesome!!!! She still wants to "triumph", with an insult to top it off. Even when losing a case in court, she would probably try to convince the client that it was her victory. However, chances are, that many DO BELIEVE she won the argument with me. The majority of people in this forum are not readers. They are writers.

jasonmrazlover		#239
Posts: 508 (02/24/08 12:53 PM)	hahaha. it finally came down to cheese. i was wondering when it'd be popping up! A simpleminded confession. once again, chese = DISGUSTING ! ! !

danielle702		#240
Posts: 4437 (02/24/08 01:07 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	T. You're weird for not liking cheese. Not even the stringy kind? I just realized were Amanda said another RKOP shirt. What ever happened with the Be cool Snowman shirt?

fanOman		#241
Posts: 1 (02/24/08 03:36 PM)	I frequent RKOP but never had the urge to post anything till I read this thread. Maria I respect you a lot! That girl is sharp as a whip. She cracks me up Jason Mraz should be proud to have fans like that Eli

jasonmrazlover		#242
Posts: 513 (02/24/08 03:51 PM)	no cheese. well, on my CHEESEburger... colby. jason should be proud of fans that call him stupid??? This was just outrageous, and age or cultural deficiency are still not an excuse. I didn't even know how to answer right away.

MariaSirota		#243
Posts: 8 (02/24/08 04:10 PM)	JillianATL wrote: Maria, I appreciate your good thoughts as I take the bar exam. First... if we don't know for sure, then this discussion is FAR from being moot. Not to mention that it's rather irrelevant whether they have a copyright or not. Their priority to the work is enough. While it is true that an original expression is copyrighted automatically once it is fixed in tangible form, the recording of the copyright provides the required notice to prevent the use of the defense of the "innocent infringer" defense. "How close" is not only relevant, it's EXTREMELY relevant. If you disagree, please provide the exact legal quote which literally states that "how close" is irrelevant as long as it's not identical. From the U.S. Copyright Office: The requirement of originality means simply that the work may not have been copied from someone else. Because the free exchange of ideas is an essential element of a democratic society, ideas themselves cannot be monopolized via the copyright laws. It is only the artist's particular expression of his or her ideas which may be protected. Therefore, it is permissible under the copyright laws for someone to express the same ideas to others, even when the ideas used represent a new concept, developed by another author. For example, if one artist is known for his original works of art depicting, for example, penguins in tuxedos, it is probably not an infringement of copyright for someone else to copy the theme of penguins in tuxedos. (or in this case...cassette tapes on t-shirts) I don't see how it can be argued that plagarism would be applicable in this scenario. Plagarism would be a case where the creators of these designs came forward and said those previous designs are my designs. That is not the case here. They are simply using an idea and creating a work of art using the same idea. Cheers!! I'm off to study things that will be on my bar exam (like secured transactions and commercial paper and non-monetary remedies....) EDIT: edited to apologize to all of my RKOP friends for getting into this quagmire....I'm done....and with that I'll just say -- Danielle -- cheese with holes in it is aaaawesome!!!! Holy cheese, Jill, you're such a diehard! I think you'll make a great lawyer. Thank you for confirming all the arguments I had before, even if it wasn't your intention. I don't want to go in circles, you can just re-read the previous posts. I just want to stress again the most important thing which you as a lawyer need to know. A litigation is not about winning the case, but about STARTING the case. If a case starts, Jason is in trouble. Knowing this, please answer the following question responsibly and unequivocally: Are you fully certain that the commercial distribution of the "Retro Tape" t-shirt would not be used as an excuse and opportunity to legally harass Jason, and that if it happens, the case would be automatically dismissed as frivolous? If you cannot give a strict positive answer, you'd better rest your case. And I wash my hands.

fanOman		#244
Posts: 2 (02/24/08 04:18 PM)	jasonmrazlover wrote: no cheese. well, on my CHEESEburger... colby. jason should be proud of fans that call him stupid??? I read all the posts and she never called Jason Mraz stupid. You're lying. but if he just ignores all this then I'll be the one to call him names.

jtrbabbitt		#245
Posts: 711 (02/24/08 04:18 PM)	jtrbabbit is still in her la la land.

danielle702		#246
Posts: 4441 (02/24/08 04:23 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	I don't want this thread to close. so let's stick with the t-shirt theme. Maybe more will be released next month if these don't sell well. I hope so. I wonder if the creators of these shirts lurk the board. come out and play! Explain your design for us!

jasonmrazlover		#247
Posts: 515 (02/24/08 04:31 PM)	gah. ridiculous. stupid. blah.

Mark Beasley		#248
Posts: 51 (02/24/08 06:37 PM)	fanOman wrote: jasonmrazlover wrote: no cheese. well, on my CHEESEburger... colby. jason should be proud of fans that call him stupid??? I read all the posts and she never called Jason Mraz stupid. You're lying. but if he just ignores all this then I'll be the one to call him names. wow i wish i could just drop the subject, but i have no self control. here's a direct quote: However, it doesn't matter whether I'm angry at Jason or not. It's better to be angry than dumb. last time i checked, dumb and stupid mean the same thing. don't tell people they are lying unless you know what you are talking about

MariaSirota		#249
Posts: 9 (02/24/08 06:51 PM)	Mark Beasley wrote: fanOman wrote: jasonmrazlover wrote: no cheese. well, on my CHEESEburger... colby. jason should be proud of fans that call him stupid??? I read all the posts and she never called Jason Mraz stupid. You're lying. but if he just ignores all this then I'll be the one to call him names. wow i wish i could just drop the subject, but i have no self control. here's a direct quote: However, it doesn't matter whether I'm angry at Jason or not. It's better to be angry than dumb. last time i checked, dumb and stupid mean the same thing. don't tell people they are lying unless you know what you are talking about "sigh poor guy. He really believes it was Jason she had in mind when answering him." Sorry, I couldn't help quoting a friend of mine who just read this post. Last Edited By: MariaSirota 02/24/08 06:57 PM. Edited 1 times. I admit that this remark was unusual for me, so I have no choice but to explain in detail what happened, to exclude any further misunderstanding. Mark Beasley's post occurred, and was read by some of my friends, in the middle of our get-together. It caused hysterical laughter in the room, and people started competing in what they would answer. To me, though, taking advantage of such an obvious vulnerability seemed too low, and I was going to answer delicately and politely, with an indirect hint. Of course it was necessary to answer people who claim that I call Jason dumb/stupid, but I would have done it softly. However, as I signed in to post my reply (not waiting for FanOman to answer his part), my friends started grabbing the laptop from my hands, pulling it from each other, and before I could do anything, one of them (who "exceeded her limitation" of beverage) posted an answer, for which I had to take responsibility, and apologize. I had no idea that it would turn into such a big deal.

Mark Beasley		#250
Posts: 52 (02/24/08 06:55 PM)	lol you are hilarious.. im not even mad anymore. you are just using that fanOman profile so you can say good things about yourself and we all think somebody likes you? (he's sure that nobody does. Bear in mind, he says "we all" quite confidently) baaah my mind just exploded The explosion of Mark Beasley's mind detonated another burst of laughter among my friends, and at that point, I didn't take it seriously either. Actually, until today, I still don't understand how this idea came to his head based on the post above. How does he imagine it technically happening with logins and passwords? Maybe the explanation lies in his own experience, when he mixed his nickname and real name while signing up. He claims that he did it "because he's an idiot". Out of respect, I won't argue. However, I don't think that even Mark Beasley would have managed to achieve the trick he so colorfully ascribes to me.

Mark Beasley		#251
Posts: 53 (02/24/08 06:56 PM)	im posting again to say: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha i love life goodbye everyone He says goodbye and doesn't leave. I still decided to answer him with a joke.

danielle702		#252
Posts: 4442 (02/24/08 06:56 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	Maybe they will do another competition for the second batch of shirts. Maybe everyone can resubmit and more people can be involved. That would be wonderful. Maybe someone heres shirt will get picked. Maybe.

MariaSirota		#253
Posts: 10 (02/24/08 07:02 PM)	Mark, Is that your picture on your avator? Judging by the expertise of your identity checks, I think that it is.

danielle702		#254
Posts: 4443 (02/24/08 07:05 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	What is with you and having to have the last word? It's really silly. If Jason get's in trouble for whatever that's his fault. He can make his own decisions. Stop being rude to each other. Ya'll don't know each other. Brush it off and carry on with life. Then whose word does she want to be the last? OK, answering insults is "silly", ergo surrendering to injustice is smart. And masochism is wisdom! This is one of the many "peace-loving" posts to come, suggesting that I stop resisting, and submit to insults. As a rule, they appear right after I say something, never after something is said to me. Bear this in mind.

Mark Beasley		#255
Posts: 54 (02/24/08 07:27 PM)	ok im done. (ok, he's done for the second time) but please tell me that someone else realized MariaSirota and fanOman are the same person? i feel like im taking crazy pills here

danielle702		#256
Posts: 4445 (02/24/08 07:31 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	You just ruined my comment about her having to have the last word. Thanks. Hey Mark. Please check your Yuku Mail. How about those shirts? Please? This is the first open acceptance of Mark Beasley's claim, but done in the most sleazy way. The meaning of this post is "yes, Mark, I agree with you, but let's not talk about it in the thread, because she will answer, and we need her to shut up". There cannot be any other interpretation of this post. Later, Mark Beasley will claim that "there was no ganging up happening".

JillianATL		#257
Posts: 321 (02/24/08 07:39 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	Maria -- this conversation started as a disagreement between two people on a legal issue that was pretty professional (she called it a "quagmire", apologized to her RKOP friends for getting into it, and changed the subject to "cheese with holes". How professional! How respectful!) and now, you have disrespected me in my chosen profession and you have personally disrespected Mark. (?!!!) I don't know you nor do I care to. Jason is a big boy and he can make his own decisions...he has lawyers working for him and he also has "copyright experts" working for him. I'm sure he can handle himself. Just recently, she wrote that she "had to" "step up" as a specialist, and now she claims that it's none of our business, and Jason can "handle himself" with the help of his own lawyers and experts "working for him" (as if she knows this for sure). I was too meek and delicate with Jillian in all of our debates, and probably shouldn't have been. I tried not to humiliate her, which would've been easy to do by just driving attention to some of her statements. Like this one, for example: "But, most importantly, plagarism is the act of producing something and claiming that it is your own - that would not be the case in this situation." Just read this phrase attentively. This is how she speaks. And this is how she thinks.

SkillToGoCommando		#258
Posts: 342 (02/24/08 07:41 PM)	Wow. this thread got weird. I'm just gonna ignore what's been happening. Let's talk about the possibilty of more shirts being picked later. I think they're gonna bring out new winners pretty soon because I have a feeling these shirts are going to sell that well. I really hope some of the ones posted here are in the next batch. Also, do you think it would be against any rules for me to make the polaroid shirt for myself?

danielle702		#259
Posts: 4446 (02/24/08 07:43 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	Why would it? It's your design. Just if it is picked later... Make sure they know you have already done it. I think. Jillian, I believe we think alike. Word.

JillianATL		#260
Posts: 325 (02/24/08 07:47 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	SkillToGoCommando wrote: Also, do you think it would be against any rules for me to make the polaroid shirt for myself? Is it your design?? Go for it!! You can make it for yourself and anyone that you want to make it for! opinion only PS - I heart Danielle

geekinthe purple		#261
Posts: 2235 (02/24/08 07:48 PM) chillin out, maxin, relaxin	Mark Beasley wrote: but please tell me that someone else realized MariaSirota and fanOman are the same person? I was thinking the exact same thing. rediculous Jeannette At this point, Mark Beasley's claim, however absurd, was readily accepted by the forum. The logic of it is: "we decided that nobody can possibly like her, so if someone does, it can only be herself". And I was still answering with a joke.

MariaSirota		#262
Posts: 11 (02/24/08 08:28 PM)	JillianATL wrote: Maria -- this conversation started as a disagreement between two people on a legal issue that was pretty professional and now, you have disrespected me in my chosen profession and you have personally disrespected Mark. I don't know you nor do I care to. Jason is a big boy and he can make his own decisions...he has lawyers working for him and he also has "copyright experts" working for him. I'm sure he can handle himself. Jillian -- Mark is also a "big boy" (in spite of his image) and can also "handle himself", unless he's already hired you to defend him as an attorney (not to mention the ridiculous claims he makes about me publicly). I don't think that I was disrespectful towards you, especially in your profession, in spite of the diminishing tone of your lectures. I'm sorry if you feel that way. In any case, I don't think that attacking me personally is really a good argument which can replace straightforward answers to straightforward questions. TO THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY "DEFEND" JASON AGAINST ME, AND ARE PROUD OF IT, LET ME SHARE A FABLE WITH YOU: Once upon a time, there lived a jolly sparrow. The winter time came (I think it was around February 24th) and great frost fell upon the land. The poor bird froze in mid-air and fell to the ground, awaiting his death. But fortunately, along came a cow and dropped her usual amount upon him. And you know what? The jolly sparrow warmed up, poked out his head and started chirping. Suddenly, a hungry cat noticed him, pulled the sparrow out, and swallowed him. The moral of the story: Not everyone who poops on you is your enemy, and not everyone who pulls you out of it is your friend. And one more moral, which definitely applies to me: if you are in... what Jillian calls a "quagmire", sit still, and don't chirp.

MariaSirota		#263
Posts: 12 (02/24/08 08:34 PM)	geekinthe purple wrote: Mark Beasley wrote: but please tell me that someone else realized MariaSirota and fanOman are the same person? I was thinking the exact same thing. rediculous Jeannette Jeannette, Sorry, quick question. Is that you in your avator?

emileigh23		#264
Posts: 1424 (02/24/08 09:00 PM) mraz makes me high	for future reference, maria, thats me in my avatar. just so you know.

rocketcat		#265
Posts: 7726 (02/24/08 09:06 PM) RKOP Abuser	And that's me in my avatar. So they defend Jeannette, pretending that I suddenly, unjustly, and without cause, attacked the poor girl.

SheWhoDaydreams		#266
Posts: 5318 (02/24/08 09:10 PM) RKOP Administrator heck is for the people not believin' in gosh.	I've been given a heads up by several people that things are getting a little heated in this thread. Please keep things civil.

MariaSirota		#267
Posts: 13 (02/24/08 09:11 PM)	emileigh23 wrote: for future reference, maria, thats me in my avatar. just so you know. Thank you for sharing such important information with me, Emileigh. It was very educational, as well as the revalation about your hairy armpit. Sorry for the typo. Revelation, of course.

emileigh23		#268
Posts: 1427 (02/24/08 09:27 PM) mraz makes me high	anything i can do to provide the facts.

JillianATL		#269
Posts: 329 (02/24/08 09:48 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	SheWhoDaydreams wrote: I've been given a heads up by several people that things are getting a little heated in this thread. Please keep things civil. Sorry Philly.... As Jeanette would say, from now on out, I am chillin out, maxin and relaxin in this thread....I have an exam to take, and after my exam...I'm drinkin! An excellent excuse to escape a situation where she has nothing to say, but pretends that she HAS to do it out of mere humbleness. From now on, and from here on out, I decided not to spare Jillian anymore.

iheartjimmayy		#270
Posts: 923 (02/24/08 09:52 PM)	I came in here to see if anyone had posted more designs they submitted for the contest and see all this happening and WOW. With that being said I would just like to share a little diddy from my favorite purple dinosaur (In my opinion, I think he's a little more on the fushia side - but that's a whole other argument) that I think we should all keep in mind. It goes like this: I love you, you love me We're a HAPPY family With a great big HUG and a kiss from me to you WON'T YOU SAY YOU LOVE ME TOO! Anyone else have designs they'd like to share? I'm loving them all.

loodleloodlelay		#271
Posts: 6547 (02/24/08 09:55 PM) i've switched to snark-lite.	what the heck is going on in here? i agree with danielle in that i don't want the t-shirt thread to close. where's charlotte? i bet she could design some cool stuff too. edited to be less of a douche. there should be a general lessening of that in here altogether. Last Edited By: loodleloodlelay 02/24/08 10:06 PM. Edited 4 times. This post, which loodleloodlelay edited, was originally addressed to me personally, and contained expressions like "your 13 most ridiculous posts", "put a sock in it", "making up a new best friend was a nice touch, though. I laughed". It was "edited to be less of a douche", and for me to be unable to address it properly. Now she plays "the peacemaker". Her level of heinousness, hypocrisy, and cynicism tips the scale, especially for a self-proclaimed "C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N". She is a smart person, at least street smart. No H is her problem, where H stands for honor.

northstar98		#272
Posts: 726 (02/24/08 10:53 PM)	i don't want the thread to close either. i never get invovled in these sort of altercations. let's all just calm down and be civilized. we're all adults in here...let's be adults and swallow the comments that may be itching to come out.

justina18		#273
Posts: 401 (02/25/08 01:13 AM)	juli is reason number 3 to visit jmd, this arguement reason number 23048958907 why i never come in anymore i wanna make cheese one day, i think that'd be awesome...

fanOman		#274
Posts: 3 (02/25/08 01:20 AM)	hahahahahahahha Since I don't exist anymore what I say doesn't even count so I'll tell you what I think. I've been reading this forum for like 3 years and it's the same bunch of people talking nonsense year after year. You meet someone sharper than you who tells the truth so you want to lynch her for schooling you. You people are soooo miserable. Maria trust me, don't waste your time on them. your imaginary friend, Eli As harsh as he sounds, I have to agree with him. I could not have come up with a clearer definition of what happens in this forum.

curlinote		#275
Posts: 418 (02/25/08 01:28 AM)	who's the loser talking nonsense here once in a while, but who reads this thread for 3 years and think himself an imaginary person? ...

loodleloodlelay		#276
Posts: 6549 (02/25/08 02:08 AM) i've switched to snark-lite.	hows about we talk about these? tj's (sltchocum) leon's (thecoolestandmostenlightenedlj) skilltogocommando's lisa's (canadianbug) amanda's (femmyme) tsubsa no kami's rachel's (pjsarefuzzy) mariasirota's artjewel's the winners

chickpea j		#277
Posts: 6 (02/25/08 02:26 AM)	holy moly hot canoli...i wanted to mention my favorites but scrolling down i loved so many i can't even remember anymore. you guys are amazing. all the designs are incredible. high fives for everybody

sltchocum		#278
Posts: 224 (02/25/08 02:56 AM)	I like them all. ESPECIALLY the first three...hehe. No, but honestly I think everyone did a fantastic job.

northstar98		#279
Posts: 727 (02/25/08 03:34 AM)	i'm still loving amanda's and skilltogocommando's...all of them are great though! way to go sara!! blocking all the previous messages.

MoMraz623		#280
Posts: 4190 (02/25/08 09:42 AM) Kiss on me tonight	That's me in my avatar, too. PLeasssss

JillianATL		#281
Posts: 334 (02/25/08 10:47 AM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	Those shirts are sooooo awesome!!! I would really buy any of them....except I'm not real fond of the galactic one that won....

maree1		#282
Posts: 181 (02/25/08 11:10 AM)	femmyme wrote: The t-shirt contest was all in good fun. Hopefully nobody who submitted designs expected to win (I didn't). Is it disappointing and conflustering that the winning designs were in most ways inferior to the ones that were NOT picked? Absolutely. Nobody owns a copyright on the "analog tape used as writing" design concept so there will be no lawsuit. That it has been done to death is just part of the overall suckiness of this contest outcome. Over spring break I will work on morphing one of my designs so we can use it as an RKOP fundraiser (with no Jason likeness)... most likely the "I'm Yours" one because that was a lot of work to get those all translated! Maybe the beneficiary can be the San Diego fire relief fund. I think I can do it with PayPal this time. Who is with me? be cool my babies, Amanda I think that's an awesome idea. I'm with you

JillianATL		#283
Posts: 340 (02/25/08 11:50 AM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	I agree - it's an excellent idea!

silvergurl		#284
Posts: 2402 (02/25/08 12:09 PM) la la la laura is lovely.com	i'm in amanda

pjsarefuzzy		#285
Posts: 234 (02/25/08 03:23 PM)	i'm in! but this time i'm ordering a small! :] my philly rkop shirt is so big i only wear it to work out in :[

olivemraz		#286
Posts: 844 (02/25/08 03:33 PM)	i wasn't good at picking backgrounds so they're mostly just white but i'd probably like a black t-shirt. it's slimming, right? they're mostly cartoonish which is kind like my personality but the last one i finally tried out photoshop and used a pic that i took. that was done like hours before the deadline. i am no longer a photoshop virgin. Lynda Version b.30

SkillToGoCommando		#287
Posts: 345 (02/25/08 03:58 PM)	I like the second one. cool ideas!

iheartjimmayy		#288
Posts: 929 (02/25/08 04:05 PM)	Thanks for reposting all

silvergurl		#289
Posts: 2406 (02/25/08 05:24 PM) la la la laura is lovely.com	those are AWESOME!!! i <3 the second one (with the scatting) but also the live high one very cute and clever.

JillianATL		#290
Posts: 347 (02/25/08 06:40 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	Lynda - I looooove the Live High one!!!!

northstar98		#291
Posts: 733 (02/25/08 08:44 PM)	i'm in amanda! oooh i like the scatting, the gratitude cafe, and the live high ones! very nice job!

jasonmrazlover		#292
Posts: 527 (02/25/08 08:48 PM)	COUNT ME IN AS WELL ! ! ! 'Scare people. Shake up the scene. Be the change you want to see in the world.' -Jason Mraz I am a: Jason Mraz Lover PMF(proud motherfucker)

rocketcat		#293
Posts: 7730 (02/25/08 09:51 PM) RKOP Abuser	I heart the Live High one, Lynda.

emileigh23		#294
Posts: 1432 (02/25/08 11:02 PM) mraz makes me high	ah! the scat one! brilliant!!!

silvergurl		#295
Posts: 2408 (02/25/08 11:43 PM) la la la laura is lovely.com	man, i really love these designs. i want a live high shirt.

olivemraz		#296
Posts: 847 (02/26/08 02:03 AM)	thanks, guys. it's great that i can be inspired by the man. i'm glad you liked them. some of them they just came to me and some i really had to work at. what you guys mentioned are my favorites. the others were ok to me. that beautiful mess one started out as 12 squares like that card game where you match up cards. anyway, i finally cut it down to just this earth one but i know the messy looking earth has been seen before but i like how you can sum it up as 'beautiful mess'. here's my commentary on some of my stuff. i thank you for all of your kind input. i'm yours: it was my first one and just came to me. i drew it on a paper napkin on the bus. the blue is fogged up mirrors. scatting: omg! i listened to his scat from the paris vids over and over again. i finally stopped because it got too fast and i couldn't keep up anymore. live high: what caped man have you known to not live righteously? (except for the bad guys) this where i got my idea. it's kind of goofy looking. gratitude cafe: it was close to the deadline when this zone perfect vid came on line. gosh, it came to me but i don't know if i've seen it before maybe in my mind? anyway, my favorite part of the design is the imperfect table and the flower. i don't know. i just love it.

sltchocum		#297
Posts: 227 (02/26/08 02:05 AM)	There all great, good job!!!

silvergurl		#298
Posts: 2411 (02/26/08 08:10 AM) la la la laura is lovely.com	i totally want to wear all these designs. NOW.

sltchocum		#299
Posts: 228 (02/26/08 05:24 PM)	silvergurl wrote: i totally want to wear all these designs. NOW. Me too! haha

femmyme		#300
Posts: 1535 (02/26/08 08:13 PM) Not So Usual	wow, more awesome designs! can we all agree how collectively talented we are?

jasonmrazlover		#301
Posts: 539 (02/26/08 08:20 PM)	most definately. She includes herself in the list of "collectively talented", of course.

olivemraz		#302
Posts: 857 (02/26/08 11:51 PM)	that's a great observation!

SkillToGoCommando		#303
Posts: 353 (02/27/08 12:42 AM)	I totally agree. we are extremely collectively talented. I would rock a bunch of these designs.

tsubsa no kami		#304
Posts: 10 (02/29/08 06:36 PM)	WOW! those were so pretty!! Great job~~!!

MariaSirota #305	After the post on 02/26/08 at 11:51 PM, there was only one post on 02/27/08 at 12:42 PM without anything substancial in it, and a similar one two days later on 02/29/08 at 06:36 PM. There were no more posts, so on 03/01/08 I decided that it was time to summerize everything.
Posts: 14 (03/01/08 05:06 PM)	I think everybody would agree that by now any further "discussion" in this thread is "completely moot" indeed. I have no intention of becoming "the new Ariadne", "bringing people to the light with a thread", but I think at least somebody should summarize everything into a conclusion, and tie this thread into a knot. Once again, it looks like there won't be any somebody other than me. So ready or not, here I come. First, the GOOD NEWS for some of you. I must confess that last weekend I had a mini-party marathon (I'm 22 now), and my correspondence in this forum became part of the entertainment program for some of my friends. Unfortunately (or fortunately) none of them are Mraz fans, and thus they had a lot of fun joking about this t-shirt contest, it's organizers, results, and my involvement in it. The meekest of the jokes was "Idle American meets Pick-asso" (it's about the contest organizer's "American Idol meets Picasso"). So whatever you think, it was embarrassing. But you never know. Yesterday, one of these people, who I actually work for at the moment, asked me what I would think about bringing some of the former contestants (I will not say who, not to open a can of worms) into our project on a freelance basis for the sake of a "fresh breath". I will not tell you my response (for the same reason mentioned above), but whatever it was, the decision is not up to me alone. It's not even up to him alone. So on Wednesday we will have a meeting about it, and chances are that sometime next week, some of the former contestants will be approached with an offer. The project is very interesting, but I should tell you up-front that there won't be any payment in advance (not to worry though, nobody will re-render your ideas and pretend that now "it's a different-enough design of an often-used metaphor" and you have nothing to do with it. If something is accepted, you will be paid adequately). Anyway, whoever of the contestants is not interested, or too busy, or hates my guts and doesn't want to deal with me, please tell now, so that we don't waste our time. In any case, your work was noticed on a relatively solid and promising level, so your efforts were definitely not in vain. Congratulations! Now back to the Natural Selection vs. Intelligent Design controversy. I think I have a clue now. Somebody already supposed that the contest winners were chosen based on Jason's intention to pick something that corresponds with his new image. I think it makes sense. On Monday Jason revealed in his blog and radio interview that David Shrigley, author of some visual and non-visual "humor" (including the immortal aphorism "we sing, we dance, we steal things"), which Jason "fell in love with", is also the author of Jason's new album artwork. Out of curiosity about Jason's new trend and Jason's new friend, I did a bit of research. As a result, I came across a review in the LA Times about David Shrigley which is quite informative. http://www.davidshrigley.com/articles/dp_article.html This article should be read as a whole, no doubt, but let me share just one quote from it: "It's no accident that Shrigley's drawings resemble what junior high students scribble in their notebooks. Both embrace a type of kneejerk nihilism that's easier to forgive in adolescents than in adults who get stuck in its shallow negativity." Isn't it ironic? It's exactly what I spoke about: a Junior High School level (see post #214). Honestly speaking, I'm afraid I'm no longer very optimistic about the new album artwork, but I have to admit: Jason's choices ARE "based on what he thinks best represents him and the style he wants to offer to his fans". I'm just not sure about Jason's ability to fully distinguish between primitivism and primitiveness. Between you and me, I thought that eventually Jason and his team would try to save face and disqualify at least one of the winners (the "retro" one, for his work not being original) and choose a new winner. Not me, not me, calm down. At least with me, at this point they would have to re-negotiate. To make it clear, I suggest you check how much a self-respecting company, Threadless for example, is paying for a t-shirt design when they accept it. Not to mention contest prizes which start from 5-figured amounts. And not to mention the "honor" of being in the same list with those winners. Give me a break! However, it seems they haven't missed the opportunity to miss the opportunity. Their recent newsletter confirmed the previous decision, making it irreversible. In this newsletter, they stress that the winners were indeed handpicked by Jason. To me, this is an indication that they ARE aware of the discussion in this thread. So what's the meaning of such a demarche? What do they want to prove with it? As much as I would like to believe that "it's not him, it's them!", looking into the impudent eyes of the truth, I can see only one reasonable explanation for such an attitude: Jason doesn't give a.... shirt about what his fans think. He doesn't even hide his contempt. Do we deserve it? Most probably. We are the ones who spoiled him into becoming a cynically playful, infantile narcissist. Just read his latest blog ("I am sorry to all I may have infected. Namely those in the elevators and those at the nightly orgies." Even I feel sick reading this. I hope he's not planning any nightly orgies in the location "he's really looking forward to" visiting. Judging on the context of this blog, one can think so). He was different before, wasn't he? I remember the time when he wasn't trying to be "cool" by being obnoxious. "But what do I know....?" Maybe some can accept it as the "new values" he claims to have set for himself. Maybe there are some people who accept any kind of treatment from him as a privilege. But as you might have noticed, I'm not humble enough (mea culpa), and I hate being pissed on. In this case, almost literally. Maybe some like it, but I'm not into it. I miss the old (young) Jason. It was a good time when he was liked, and not cultivated. As for this forum, there's an old saying: "when people agree to only say good things about someone, it means he's dead." Ok, that's about it. Now you can proceed undisturbed with the "sore loser-jealous about the prize-ridiculous posts-desperately wants recognition-life is great-everybody say cheeeeeeeese" discussion (just to save you any Beasley style "smart" guesses (later Mark Beasley will indeed repeat all the above mentioned allegations, even using the very same words. See further), let me inform you that I am successful enough, attractive enough, and popular more than enough. Whoever doubts it is welcome to check if/when they are in New York. It won't be difficult. "Anything I can do to provide the facts"). I won't argue anymore. I agree: If Jason wasn't such a dork, he'd be really awesome. (Jason's quote on one of the winning t-shirts)

loodleloodlelay		#306
Posts: 6603 (03/01/08 05:13 PM) i've switched to snark-lite.	pfffffft Just an expression of contempt, that's all. Judging on the time difference between her post and mine, it's obvious that she didn't even read it. Keep this in mind when reading her statements like "maybe try reading it objectively and not so you can fight back. i'm sorry you're in such a tough position now but if you want to really participate in the meaningful conversations that make this forum fun (and not grating) you're probably going to have to rethink the way you interact with the other members."

jtrbabbitt		#307
Posts: 716 (03/01/08 05:37 PM)	my head hurts. really... Hi Saranoh! I am reading a book of 4 Oscar Wilde short plays plus "The Importance of Being Earnest." That play always makes me think of you because the movie has Colin Firth in it. I quite enjoy that movie. harrumph Oh yeah, to belong here...TShirt

loodleloodlelay		#308
Posts: 6605 (03/01/08 06:09 PM) i've switched to snark-lite.	hahahhha. i'll get it out of the way early. t shirt. hi laurie! i enjoyed that movie too. haven't read the book. i'm still working on mansfield park while trying to squeeze in the almost moon.

rocketcat		#309
Posts: 7755 (03/01/08 07:55 PM) RKOP Abuser	MariaSirota wrote: Between you and me, ... thanks. I needed that. It's not clear whether she does understand, and likes this paradox, or thinks that I don't comprehend my own writing. What does she mean by this remark? And what's the purpose of posting it?

JillianATL		#310
Posts: 379 (03/03/08 01:43 PM) Hey! I can see your house from here!	...hmpfh...wish I hadn't clicked to open on this thread before my morning coffee..... Yeah, poor Jillian. This smiley is probably what she looks like now, after all that "maxin', relaxin', and drinkin".

After this post, the thread was silent day after day and completely buried under different threads, which eventually pushed it into the next page.

Meanwhile the same people started discussing Jason's new imagery in another thread called We Sing, We Dance, We Steal Things

sltchocum

#498

Posts: 237

(03/05/08 11:01 PM)

I think that this might be the cover for the first EP We Sing.:

nebulaXstars		#496
Posts: 571 (03/05/08 11:36 PM) a to the mizzle	eek! so pumped!

SkillToGoCommando		#497
Posts: 367 (03/06/08 12:57 AM)	I like the ep cover. The album cover on the other hand....looks like an alien or something. its weird.

sltchocum		#498
Posts: 238 (03/06/08 01:12 AM)	SkillToGoCommando wrote: I like the ep cover. The album cover on the other hand....looks like an alien or something. its weird. Haha, yeah I like the EP, but, yeah the "Album Cover" kinda looks like an alien, haha.

sltchocum		#500
Posts: 239 (03/06/08 01:56 AM)	I think that the album cover should look something like this: I like the idea of having his fun little drawings for the singles and Ep's

sltchocum		#502
Posts: 240 (03/06/08 02:23 AM)	moof33 wrote: thats th exact picture i thought WAS going to be the album cover as thats the one they are using to promote his upcoming australian tour! would be good if it WAS that one... I thought it was going to be the album cover too.

sltchocum		#503
Posts: 241 (03/06/08 02:49 AM)	In order to help promote Jason's new album, I thought that I would make these promotional images to help promote the new album and single. If want put these images on your MySpace or something all you have to do is click on the picture of the image you want and it will bring to a Photobucket page so you can copy and paste the code(s) to your myspace page or any other webpage that you might have. Banner: We Sing, We Dance, We Steal Things Promo: I'm Your's Promo:

pjsarefuzzy		#505
Posts: 242 (03/06/08 10:15 AM)	i think what bugs me the most about the hand drawn picture of jason, is that the chin is just too big. thats all i can look at every time i see it :[

childlikefaith		#506
Posts: 19 (03/06/08 10:45 AM)	I'm thinking if it's because he's going with the artist's kinda drawing techniques etc, because apparently the artist, whom he also took the album name from, does a lot of one-dimensional black and white drawings, that are akin to the work of a grade school student. (a quote from the article in the LA Times. See post #305 in the "2 new contests" thread) Maybe it's a whole theme he's going with? Just a thought....

SkillToGoCommando		#507
Posts: 368 (03/06/08 11:09 AM)	I thought one of those photoshoot pics were gonna be used for the cover, as well. I just don't think this cover is going to do him any favors in a record store. Honestly, I wouldn't buy based on how it looked. It doesn't represent his sound either and that bothers me.

sltchocum		#508
Posts: 242 (03/06/08 12:30 PM)	SkillToGoCommando wrote: I just don't think this cover is going to do him any favors in a record store. Honestly, I wouldn't buy based on how it looked. It doesn't represent his sound either and that bothers me. Thats what bothers me too!!!

zeadus		#509
Posts: 3189 (03/06/08 02:02 PM) tittybangin'	i love the album cover. it's simple, stripped down and to the point. why should we know what represents jason and his music better than jason does?

emileigh23		#511
Posts: 1509 (03/06/08 06:27 PM) mraz makes me high	sltchocum wrote: SkillToGoCommando wrote: I just don't think this cover is going to do him any favors in a record store. Honestly, I wouldn't buy based on how it looked. It doesn't represent his sound either and that bothers me. Thats what bothers me too!!! who'da thought chickens and pickup trucks would go platinum? don't judge a book by its cover, y'all!!!!

iangronow	goo	#512
Posts: 71 (03/06/08 07:38 PM)	Maybe he ran out of money... he was on a tight budget for the whole album wasn't he? So maybe he couldn't afford someone else to design the album cover so he did it himself! I think it's okay, obviously a theme going on there. Also... sorry if this seems an obvious question, but when the EPs become available, will they be digital only or will it be ordering a physical copy of the CD? Will it be available outside the US? Ian

Mrs A to Z xD		#513
Posts: 95 (03/06/08 08:21 PM)	I actually really like the album cover. I like the simplicity of it.

nebulaXstars		#516
Posts: 587 (03/06/08 11:56 PM) a to the mizzle	i really like the album cover as well. i think its different. and simple. i hate flashy album covers.

geekinthe purple		#517
Posts: 2299 (03/06/08 11:58 PM) chillin out, maxin, relaxin	Im not sure why, but it reminds me of "Where the Sidewalk Ends" by Shel Silverstine I guess its the white background? Jeannette

youandibothlovejasonmraz		#520
Posts: 3012 (03/07/08 06:21 AM) She's a white girl ...in Chicago	SkillToGoCommando wrote: I thought one of those photoshoot pics were gonna be used for the cover, as well. I just don't think this cover is going to do him any favors in a record store. Honestly, I wouldn't buy based on how it looked. It doesn't represent his sound either and that bothers me. hmmm... i don't know. I think that the cover would attract more attention in a record store. It might be a wtf? reaction, but it will still be a type of reaction that will make the consumer pick the album up and see what it is all about.

Annerueth		#521
Posts: 7 (03/07/08 06:32 AM)	I really don't like the new album cover. Jason looks like "Bogdanoff brothers" on it :

choffer		#524
Posts: 517 (03/07/08 08:47 AM)	Do we know that the artwork is Jason's own? I thought I'd read that David Shrigley had done all the illustrations after Jason had contacted him to ask if he could use the title. I like it but then I've long been a fan of Mr Shrigley's work. "I don't distinguish between Mr. Shrigley's work and anybody else's, but I've long been a fan."

artjewl		#525
Posts: 51 (03/07/08 09:00 AM)	choffer wrote: Do we know that the artwork is Jason's own? I thought I'd read that David Shrigley had done all the illustrations after Jason had contacted him to ask if he could use the title. I like it but then I've long been a fan of Mr Shrigley's work. That was my impression as well.

SkillToGoCommando		#526
Posts: 370 (03/07/08 01:19 PM)	I've decided I don't care how it looks. I know it's going to sound AMAZING. and that's the only thing that matters. Also, people who have heard If it Kills Me, how is it? is it gonna be a favorite?

GotURMessage		#529
Posts: 2 (03/07/08 04:46 PM)	Who really cares what the album cover looks like. I personally like it, but even if I didn't, Jason obviously feels like it represents the music on the album. And also, for those of you who think it doesn't look like him (and it really doesn't), that shouldn't matter either. If he wanted something that looked exactly like him, I'm sure he could have found someone to draw a more accurate representation of him. If he felt it was the cover of the album, then we shouldn't second guess that. No wonder my impression of RKOP ("that Jason's fans do not automatically and thoughtlessly accept anything that originates from him") has changed.

MariaSirota		People were somewhat startled with Jason's new imagery, but did their best to persuade themselves into positive perception and acceptance of it. Their reaction can generally be subdivided into three categories: 1) Anything Jason does is great. This position goes by two rules- 1. Jason is always right. 2. If Jason is wrong, see rule #1. The major proponent of this precept is Jason himself, of course. 2) I don't care about Jason's image. Jason doesn't even need to have an image (I'm afraid these people don't realize that it's not an absence of image- it's an insulting one). 3) There must be some brilliant promotional trick behind it. It'll attract people's attention: someone will see the album in a store and say "wtf is this?! I'll buy it!". What a realistic expectation. But nobody had the common sense and guts to openly admit the obvious: JASON IS VANDALIZING HIMSELF. #533
Posts: 16 (03/07/08 08:32 PM)	zeadus wrote: i love the album cover. it's simple, stripped down and to the point. why should we know what represents jason and his music better than jason does? If I didn't know who Jason is and I supposed that you're right, and THIS is what represents his music, why on earth would I ever buy the album? I would prefer to think that the cover has nothing to do with what's inside ("I've decided I don't care how it looks. I know it's going to sound AMAZING" ~SkillToGoCommando) However, if it doesn't correspond with what's inside, then damn it, we can and should start questioning whether Jason knows what he's doing. But let me tell you this, Micaela, it is "stripped down" indeed. His whole new image inevitably reminds me of the famous tale by Hans Christian Anderson "The Emperor's New Clothes". If you're not familiar, you can read it here. It's worth it. http://hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html. (By the way, don't miss one of the key opening phrases: "The great city where he resided was very gay; every day many strangers from all parts of the globe arrived." Symbolic, isn't it?) I think I have to be the child in the story who shouts: "But he has nothing on at all!". Somebody should.

At approximately the same time, I placed the following post in the "2 new contests" thread:

MariaSirota #311
Posts: 17 (03/07/08 08:48 PM)	People tend to change their minds. Sometimes they don't want someone to be locked up, and seem to do their best to prevent it from happening. And then they don't care if this same someone is dying, or even being buried alive. Look at the fate of this long-suffering thread. Last week it was clear that it's days were numbered, so I tried to give poor Thready the last writes, and most people commemorated the late "2 new contests" with a lengthy moment of silence, not even interrupted by some rather indecent sounds (pffft, harumph, hmpft) let out due to obvious incapability of digesting anything that's not sugar-coated (alas, some ladies just don't have the stomach for healthy reactions). But as the other Mark (also a great writer) once said "the rumors of death have been greatly exaggerated". Today, I happened to open Jason's website and the major thing I saw there was a posting about the Design Contest '08: "Winners will be announced very soon! Stay tuned!". And nothing else. So it looks like the contest is not over, it continues. It's not even excluded that some people of those 650 submissions might still be waiting for the results, if they haven't done their research. Or maybe Jason is also going to change his mind, especially as his astrologer warned him that his "brain would be scattered and unable to focus until April 1st". A perfect day for winners to be announced. Anyway, they tell me to stay tuned, and I will. Although I'm not sure what for. But whatever it is, nothing will surprise me anymore.

loodleloodlelay		#312
Posts: 6662 (03/07/08 08:52 PM) i've switched to snark-lite.	we're not reading these lengthy diatribes. get the hint. cat, where's the dead horse icon? This post is also on behalf of all RKOP members.

danielle702		#313
Posts: 4549 (03/07/08 08:56 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	"Today, I happened to open Jason's website and the major thing I saw there was a posting about the Design Contest '08: "Winners will be announced very soon! Stay tuned!". And nothing else. So it looks like the contest is not over, it continues" Or maybe the web people are slacking. People get busy. So. I like tshirts. Just not many of the ones selected. Amanda did you figure out if you were going to print any of yours? Suddenly "tshirts" are important again.

MariaSirota		#314
Posts: 18 (03/07/08 09:09 PM)	loodleloodlelay wrote: we're not reading these lengthy diatribes. get the hint. I'm really sorry. I know it's not easy for some people to combine letters into words. So I promise you, and other people of your "we" that I will keep my "diatribes" short from now on. Oh, by the way, within the last 5 minutes, there were 15 more people "not reading". Get the hint.

MariaSirota		#315
Posts: 19 (03/07/08 09:25 PM)	danielle702 wrote: "Today, I happened to open Jason's website and the major thing I saw there was a posting about the Design Contest '08: "Winners will be announced very soon! Stay tuned!". And nothing else. So it looks like the contest is not over, it continues" Or maybe the web people are slacking. People get busy. If the site is under construction (or under destruction, in this case) then the "slacking" people should still have found time within the past month to announce it. And if this is the case, then Jason had the following options: a) demand that they do their job. b) fire them, and hire the ones that don't slack. c) do it himself instead of devoting so much time to his blogs. But all of this, of course, is only if he respects the people who visit his site. Or at least cares about his own image. By the way, maybe you can help me: who are these "people", and what are they so busy with?

Mark Beasley		#316
Posts: 62 (03/07/08 10:05 PM)	they are busy living their lives. not everyone is perfect like you

chickpea j		#317
Posts: 16 (03/07/08 10:11 PM)	maria, your reasons for insuting jason have no relevance. i don't think you were a fan to begin with, you just want to hate on him. and you came to do it on his message board, where everyone here loves him. that's just asking for trouble... if you're going to be that way, then please just go away.

MariaSirota		#318
Posts: 20 (03/07/08 10:53 PM)	maria, your reasons for insuting jason have no relevance. Without arguing whether my reasons have any relevence or not, I can simply stress that I have never insulted Jason. The impression you have is just the result of some of his self-inflicted insults which happened to be brought to his fans' attention. You, and people like you, praise him for whatever he does. So it's also your responsibility to an extent. But for the fans who do care, it is high time to start panicking about what's happening to him. i don't think you were a fan to begin with, I understand that you don't think, and it would be silly for me to list my credentials on this issue. I can only say that I did what I could, and continue doing what I can to be of some help, applying my competence and skills. you just want to hate on him. and you came to do it on his message board, where everyone here loves him. If to you a fan is a person who tries to lick him head to toe in all cases, then by your definition I am not. that's just asking for trouble... Should I consider it a threat? if you're going to be that way, then please just go away. Sorry, but I will not be able to please you at this time.

loodleloodlelay		#319
Posts: 6664 (03/07/08 11:08 PM) i've switched to snark-lite.	laurie, you've been ousted. you had a nice run, though.

sltchocum		#320
Posts: 245 (03/08/08 12:21 AM)	I usually don't like to get involved in these kind of situations, but I have found, that in the past, if you just ignore these type of users that they will eventually stop posting and go away if you do not reply to what they have to say. Thats writing from personal experience. haha

curlinote		#321
Posts: 436 (03/08/08 12:31 AM)	anyway, speaking of the new album design cover (in the WSWDWST thread), incidentally, almost all the designs i submitted for the t shirt designs had caricatures of Jason...to think that he would actually use a handdrawn caricature of himself. Maybe I can post wht I drew here.....just don't laugh. lolz

jtrbabbitt		#322
Posts: 724 (03/08/08 12:45 AM)	New smilie created for this thread. Sara - do you think I could join the book group?

loodleloodlelay		#323
Posts: 6665 (03/08/08 01:11 AM) i've switched to snark-lite.	um, of course? it's the rkop book club.

jtrbabbitt		#324
Posts: 725 (03/08/08 01:14 AM)	flippin' sweet.

sltchocum		#325
Posts: 247 (03/08/08 01:22 AM)	curlinote wrote: anyway, speaking of the new album design cover (in the WSWDWST thread), incidentally, almost all the designs i submitted for the t shirt designs had caricatures of Jason...to think that he would actually use a handdrawn caricature of himself. Maybe I can post wht I drew here.....just don't laugh. lolz I promise not to laugh.

danielle702		#326
Posts: 4550 (03/08/08 01:27 AM) Have you hugged a noob today?	Me too!

jtrbabbitt		#327
Posts: 726 (03/08/08 01:40 AM)	Me too! I can't draw at all, and I wish I could. I am in awe of creative people.

olivemraz	from my brain to your computer screen	#328
Posts: 880 (03/08/08 03:12 AM)	inspired by silliness... young mraz scooting down a snowy hill inside a large coffee cup wearing oreo cookie glasses (double stuffed)

curlinote		#329
Posts: 438 (03/08/08 05:29 AM)	Oh god, my drawing's amateurish too, but I thought heck it, just join the contest! After seeing all the others posted here, I thought mine were hilarious one last embarrassing one: it'd be cool if everyone can start drawing jason too, and post it up here

Mrs Hippie		#330
Posts: 75 (03/08/08 06:21 AM)	Two Thumbs up !!!

Mark Beasley		#331
Posts: 65 (03/08/08 11:55 AM)	i like the coffee cup one ha it doesnt really look like jason mraz but it makes me smile

sltchocum		#332
Posts: 249 (03/08/08 01:18 PM)	I like them. It fits the theme of the new album!

jasonmrazlover		#333
Posts: 604 (03/08/08 02:37 PM)	omfg maria. those are good curli! I wish i could draw! hahaha. i can't it's horrible She still continues testing my patience, even after seven e-mail messages I answered. She probably thinks it's her duty towards the forum to spit on me every time she passes by. This is the way she gains RKOPeople's support.

MariaSirota		#334
Posts: 23 (03/08/08 05:42 PM)	Dear Curlinote, Well, it's indisputable that Jason's new trend validates your artistic activity. Work on your British accent, enrich your knowledge of sexual and non-sexual perversions, take up some affordable addiction, and chances are, you can become another renown YBA master. If you are lucky, you can even become an "inspiration" to somebody prominent who suddenly decides to seek popularity within the realms of underclass pop subculture.

MariaSirota		#335
Posts: 24 (03/08/08 05:44 PM)	jasonmrazlover wrote: omfg maria. Dear PMF, pmfjib wdyt omfg wfm? tps. pls qsl asap. tafn, Maria This is the softest possible answer to the spat in my direction.

Mark Beasley		#336
Posts: 67 (03/08/08 06:22 PM)	i hope one day you can look back on this moment and realize how much of a asshole you were by the way... picking on 16 year old girls really makes us respect you. keep it up HE CALLED ME AN "ASSHOLE"!

danielle702		#337
Posts: 4552 (03/08/08 06:26 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	gas on the fire. Shrug and carry on. This is the only reaction from the forum: "wrong tactics. Just ignore her". They should have the fans give more of a say in what gets printed. Since we do pay for the shirts. And we wear them. I really like some of the older shirts too. Maybe they will do a shirt for each track again. I love my Please Don't Tell Her shirt.

sltchocum		#338
Posts: 252 (03/08/08 06:37 PM)	danielle702 wrote: Maybe they will do a shirt for each track again. That would be AWESOME! No matter what he pretends to mean, this is still his reaction to Mark Beasley's post.

MariaSirota		#339
Posts: 27 (03/08/08 06:38 PM)	Mark Beasley wrote: i hope one day you can look back on this moment and realize how much of a asshole you were by the way... picking on 16 year old girls really makes us respect you. keep it up So if I understood you correctly, nobody respects me anymore. According to you, in order to be respected, you should not pick on 16 year olds, but rather PICK ASSHOLES, like you do. I still tried to answer with humor (he picks on me, I'm an asshole, so he picks assholes. I have to explain, because even this was too much for the intelligence of my opponents).

sltchocum		#340
Posts: 253 (03/08/08 06:40 PM)	This is ridiculous. And this is his reaction to my post.

Mark Beasley		#341
Posts: 69 (03/08/08 06:44 PM)	lol what?? nobody likes you. go away. Again, on behalf of everybody.

danielle702		#342
Posts: 4553 (03/08/08 06:44 PM) Have you hugged a noob today?	blank Last Edited By: danielle702 03/09/08 01:16 AM. Edited 1 times. The reason for editing (after my answer) remains unknown.

sltchocum		#343
Posts: 254 (03/08/08 06:45 PM)	What Danielle said.

MariaSirota		#344
Posts: 30 (03/08/08 06:58 PM)	danielle702 wrote: MariaSirota wrote: Mark Beasley wrote: i hope one day you can look back on this moment and realize how much of a asshole you were by the way... picking on 16 year old girls really makes us respect you. keep it up So if I understood you correctly, nobody respects me anymore. According to you, in order to be respected, you should not pick on 16 year olds, but rather PICK ASSHOLES, like you do. Uncalled for name calling. I don't understand why you are causing so much trouble. Why does it interest you to bother people? Clearly people are getting upset. Why do you keep it going? Do you even care about the music or the interest in the board.? sure it is a discussion forum, but it's not a place just to go to upset people. Why can't you just let things go. You made your point. let it go! Who are you addressing? Me, or the people attacking me?

Mark Beasley		#345
Posts: 71 (03/08/08 07:00 PM)	you. now go away He posts this two minutes after my post. No hesitations. He's confident of everyone's support in general, and Danielle's in particular. Well, he answers on her behalf, and she doesn't object.

At the time, in the WSWDWST thread, there was parallel discusion which started earlier that day:

youandibothlovejasonmra#538
Posts: 3018 (03/08/08 01:13 AM) She's a white girl ...in Chicago	all the drawings are done by david shrigley. Creativity is a wonderful thing and I'm happy to see that jason has gone in a direction that will get people talking about music and art. I would be worried if jason was trying to fit in with the other mainstream artists. maria, i think that jason knows exactly what he's doing. He was inspired by david shrigley's work, and thought that artwork from him was a perfect fit for the album. I don't see the harm in that.

Mark Beasley		#539
Posts: 64 (03/08/08 01:42 AM)	i think its perfect. but even if i didn't... there's a reason it says "jason mraz" on the front. if a cd is released with your name in bold letters, you can choose what picture goes on it

choffer		#540
Posts: 519 (03/08/08 02:02 PM)	youandibothlovejasonmraz wrote: all the drawings are done by david shrigley. Thought so - thanks for clearing that up, Rikki.

jasonmrazlover		#541
Posts: 602 (03/08/08 02:28 PM)	youandibothlovejasonmraz wrote: all the drawings are done by david shrigley. Creativity is a wonderful thing and I'm happy to see that jason has gone in a direction that will get people talking about music and art. I would be worried if jason was trying to fit in with the other mainstream artists. maria, i think that jason knows exactly what he's doing. He was inspired by david shrigley's work, and thought that artwork from him was a perfect fit for the album. I don't see the harm in that. thanks for clearing that up! i thought that was the case. it'll catch your eye in the music store. it was a good idea to do something different!!! ahmen.

MariaSirota		#542
Posts: 21 (03/08/08 05:33 PM)	youandibothlovejasonmraz wrote: all the drawings are done by david shrigley. Creativity is a wonderful thing and I'm happy to see that jason has gone in a direction that will get people talking about music and art. I would be worried if jason was trying to fit in with the other mainstream artists. maria, i think that jason knows exactly what he's doing. He was inspired by david shrigley's work, and thought that artwork from him was a perfect fit for the album. I don't see the harm in that. Creativity is a wonderful thing, no doubt, especially if you understand what it is. Jason definitely "has gone in a direction that will get people talking". But I doubt it will be different from what most people (not just me) are already saying. Especially if they are not Jason's fans yet. It's clear for me as a marketing specialist that Jason's new promotional approach is risky to say the least. But Jason is Jason. What about you? Do you really think THIS is a "perfect fit" between art and his music? If you honestly think so, you should urgently make an appointment with either an optometrist or an otolaryngologist. I hope it's nothing serious. Now, if you think its something principally new and different from what "mainstream artists" have been doing for decades, you are also mistaken. This "challenging" approach ranges from the Beatles "White Album" to Damien Rice's latest albums. The difference is: most of those people have managed to present "simplified" images with a strong sense of appropriateness, tact, and taste. Do your research, and hopefully you will understand the DIFFERENCE. If you do, great. Then you'll be ready to start "talking about music and art". If not... well, then this new album imagery is addressed to you indeed. Not as a complement though, but as a mockery. Don't have any illusions about it. And this is the harm you don't see.

MariaSirota		#543
Posts: 22 (03/08/08 05:35 PM)	Mark Beasley wrote: i think its perfect. Wait a minute Mark, you just said that "not everyone is perfect like me". Have you changed your mind already? Should I be jealous?

choffer		#544
Posts: 520 (03/08/08 05:45 PM)	MariaSirota wrote: youandibothlovejasonmraz wrote: all the drawings are done by david shrigley. Creativity is a wonderful thing and I'm happy to see that jason has gone in a direction that will get people talking about music and art. I would be worried if jason was trying to fit in with the other mainstream artists. maria, i think that jason knows exactly what he's doing. He was inspired by david shrigley's work, and thought that artwork from him was a perfect fit for the album. I don't see the harm in that. Creativity is a wonderful thing, no doubt, especially if you understand what it is. Jason definitely "has gone in a direction that will get people talking". But I doubt it will be different from what most people (not just me) are already saying. Especially if they are not Jason's fans yet. It's clear for me as a marketing specialist that Jason's new promotional approach is risky to say the least. But Jason is Jason. What about you? Do you really think THIS is a "perfect fit" between art and his music? If you honestly think so, you should urgently make an appointment with either an optometrist or an otolaryngologist. I hope it's nothing serious. Now, if you think its something principally new and different from what "mainstream artists" have been doing for decades, you are also mistaken. This "challenging" approach ranges from the Beatles "White Album" to Damien Rice's latest albums. The difference is: most of those people have managed to present "simplified" images with a strong sense of appropriateness, tact, and taste. Do your research, and hopefully you will understand the DIFFERENCE. If you do, great. Then you'll be ready to start "talking about music and art". If not... well, then this new album imagery is addressed to you indeed. Not as a complement though, but as a mockery. Don't have any illusions about it. And this is the harm you don't see. Ouch - nice way to get up people's noses. Let me get this straight - if you like the Shrigley artwork being used by Jason, you should be mocked for your poor eyesight? And you know this is the case because you are a marketing specialist? Again, deliberate contortion of my words to make them sound ridiculous. I am hoping that this isn't actually one of the most conceited posts I've seen in a while and I'm actually missing the point somewhere. Art (whether aural or visual) is judged by personal taste. Personally, the works of N'Sync (sp?) or Gauguin do nothing for me but I would never suggest that someone who liked them needed their ears or eyes tested. Personal perception, taste, call it what you like - we all like different things and that's what makes the world an interesting place. To me, this is also "one of the most conceited posts I've seen in a while". A person who puts 'nsync and Gauguin in the same list and claims that Gauguin does nothing for him, but he's long been a fan of Mr Shrigley's work, arrogantly lectures about the nature of art.

MariaSirota		#545
Posts: 25 (03/08/08 05:54 PM)	choffer wrote: Ouch - nice way to get up people's noses. Let me get this straight - if you like the Shrigley artwork being used by Jason, you should be mocked for your poor eyesight? And you know this is the case because you are a marketing specialist? I am hoping that this isn't actually one of the most conceited posts I've seen in a while and I'm actually missing the point somewhere. Art (whether aural or visual) is judged by personal taste. Personally, the works of N'Sync (sp?) or Gauguin do nothing for me but I would never suggest that someone who liked them needed their ears or eyes tested. Personal perception, taste, call it what you like - we all like different things and that's what makes the world an interesting place. You do miss the point. And not just somewhere, but in this very post. I was not talking about liking or disliking Shrigley, but about the correspondence between his album cover art and Jason's music. By the way, art is not "judged" just by somebodies "personal taste". Fortunately, there are objective criteria as well.

choffer		#546
Posts: 521 (03/08/08 06:04 PM)	MariaSirota wrote: choffer wrote: Ouch - nice way to get up people's noses. Let me get this straight - if you like the Shrigley artwork being used by Jason, you should be mocked for your poor eyesight? And you know this is the case because you are a marketing specialist? I am hoping that this isn't actually one of the most conceited posts I've seen in a while and I'm actually missing the point somewhere. Art (whether aural or visual) is judged by personal taste. Personally, the works of N'Sync (sp?) or Gauguin do nothing for me but I would never suggest that someone who liked them needed their ears or eyes tested. Personal perception, taste, call it what you like - we all like different things and that's what makes the world an interesting place. You do miss the point. And not just somewhere, but in this very post. I was not talking about liking or disliking Shrigley, but about the correspondence between his album cover art and Jason's music. By the way, art is not "judged" just by somebodies "personal taste". Fortunately, there are objective criteria as well. I'm afraid then, that I did not miss the point of your post. I also disagree with all your points above but I believe that people should be allowed to form their own opinions rather than be told what works and what doesn't work. For this reason I doubt it serves any purpose to continue the debate on whether the Shrigley/Mraz combination works. Some people think it does, some think it doesn't - both are valid views as far as I'm concerned. This declaration about art in general deserves its own thread in the forum (to a very big extent, the cliches he uses are indicative of today's "democratic" approach, which brings marginal levels of culture into mainstream), so we'll come back to it. But we're talking commercial art here, in which (for Mr.Choffer's knowledge, and maybe even to his surprise) the major, if not the only, criterion for the quality of art (in this case design) is "what works and what doesn't work" (even in the t-shirt contest guidelines, Jason's team asks for "marketability"). The quality of a design is usually evaluated with the following questions: does it fulfill its advertising function? Does it compliment the client's image and status? Does it attract people (and not just "drive their attention with wtf")? Does it fulfill its illustrative function, thus improving and boosting the impression of the aural perception? And how does it indicate the aesthetic, intellectual, and moral preferences of the client? All of this cannot be defined by just trial and error experimentation: "maybe some won't like it -- maybe some will; hopefully, the latter will be the majority" (isn't that what Mr.Choffer suggests by "people should be allowed to form their own opinions"?) Even if "people" don't need (or don't want) to be told, Jason, who is in the entertainment business, obviously needs serious consultation, and needs it badly. On many levels. So far, he just pushes ahead with sheer flamboyance, counting on the support of his fans, and even saving some money at the same time (I can only say that those who save money this way usually still end up paying, and paying dearly). However, it's obvious that he's far from being self-sufficient in public relations and marketing decision making. I'm afraid the supposition that "Jason knows what he's doing" is way too optimistic.

Mark Beasley		#547
Posts: 66 (03/08/08 06:17 PM)	MariaSirota wrote: Mark Beasley wrote: i think its perfect. Wait a minute Mark, you just said that "not everyone is perfect like me". Have you changed your mind already? Should I be jealous? well, considering an album cover isn't a person.... no? nice try though

MariaSirota		#548
Posts: 26 (03/08/08 06:29 PM)	*choffer wrote:* *MariaSirota wrote:* choffer wrote: Ouch - nice way to get up people's noses. Let me get this straight - if you like the Shrigley artwork being used by Jason, you should be mocked for your poor eyesight? And you know this is the case because you are a marketing specialist? I am hoping that this isn't actually one of the most conceited posts I've seen in a while and I'm actually missing the point somewhere. Art (whether aural or visual) is judged by personal taste. Personally, the works of N'Sync (sp?) or Gauguin do nothing for me but I would never suggest that someone who liked them needed their ears or eyes tested. Personal perception, taste, call it what you like - we all like different things and that's what makes the world an interesting place. You do miss the point. And not just somewhere, but in this very post. I was not talking about liking or disliking Shrigley, but about the correspondence between his album cover art and Jason's music. By the way, art is not "judged" just by somebodies "personal taste". Fortunately, there are objective criteria as well. I'm afraid then, that I did not miss the point of your post. I also disagree with all your points above but I believe that people should be allowed to form their own opinions rather than be told what works and what doesn't work. For this reason I doubt it serves any purpose to continue the debate on whether the Shrigley/Mraz combination works. Some people think it does, some think it doesn't - both are valid views as far as I'm concerned. You say you're afraid that you "did not miss the point". Don't be afraid- you did. You say that people should not be told "what works and what doesn't", but there should be no debates about it. What a wonderful presentation of the freedom of choice. If you "doubt it serves any purpose to continue the debate", then what are forums generally for, and this one in particular? "Hail Jason!", end of debate?

Mark Beasley		#549
Posts: 68 (03/08/08 06:33 PM)	hail maria. will you go away now?

sltchocum		#550
Posts: 251 (03/08/08 06:35 PM)	OK, seriously! What is up with this Maria chick? Does she need to cause controversy on every topic?

MariaSirota		#551
Posts: 28 (03/08/08 06:50 PM)	Mark Beasley wrote: hail maria. will you go away now? Did I miss something? Do you own the forum already? Are people supposed to ask your permission to stay or to go? Mark, there is no need to demonstrate your intellectual capacity wherever you can. And even wherever you cannot a little bit.

MariaSirota		#552
Posts: 29 (03/08/08 06:53 PM)	sltchocum wrote: OK, seriously! What is up with this Maria chick? Does she need to cause controversy on every topic? What's up with this Sltchocum dude? Does he need to demonstrate the lack of elementary comprehension on every topic?

sltchocum		#553
Posts: 256 (03/08/08 06:53 PM)

youandibothlovejasonmraz		#554
Posts: 3019 (03/08/08 07:00 PM) She's a white girl ...in Chicago	MariaSirota wrote: youandibothlovejasonmraz wrote: all the drawings are done by david shrigley. Creativity is a wonderful thing and I'm happy to see that jason has gone in a direction that will get people talking about music and art. I would be worried if jason was trying to fit in with the other mainstream artists. maria, i think that jason knows exactly what he's doing. He was inspired by david shrigley's work, and thought that artwork from him was a perfect fit for the album. I don't see the harm in that. Creativity is a wonderful thing, no doubt, especially if you understand what it is. Jason definitely "has gone in a direction that will get people talking". But I doubt it will be different from what most people (not just me) are already saying. Especially if they are not Jason's fans yet. It's clear for me as a marketing specialist that Jason's new promotional approach is risky to say the least. But Jason is Jason. What about you? Do you really think THIS is a "perfect fit" between art and his music? If you honestly think so, you should urgently make an appointment with either an optometrist or an otolaryngologist. I hope it's nothing serious. Now, if you think its something principally new and different from what "mainstream artists" have been doing for decades, you are also mistaken. This "challenging" approach ranges from the Beatles "White Album" to Damien Rice's latest albums. The difference is: most of those people have managed to present "simplified" images with a strong sense of appropriateness, tact, and taste. Do your research, and hopefully you will understand the DIFFERENCE. If you do, great. Then you'll be ready to start "talking about music and art". If not... well, then this new album imagery is addressed to you indeed. Not as a complement though, but as a mockery. Don't have any illusions about it. And this is the harm you don't see. No matter what you release into the world (music, art, movies, etc) there are going to be opinions of that particular brand of work on both sides of the spectrum; praise and harsh criticism . Maria, your opinion I respect 100%, but your attitude I do not. And you know what? As a music-radio marketing specialist, it doesn't matter what the fuck the album cover looks like because over 70% of albums sales are now online. And the rest are pretty much illegally downloaded. For jason, to make the majority of the money, is all through touring. And for anyone that has seen a live show, he does a hell of a job. but thank god, it's not money that drives him, it's the music.

Mark Beasley		#555
Posts: 72 (03/08/08 07:02 PM)	ps. go away No reaction to this from the forum. At this same time, he opened a new thread titled "dear maria", with the post "go away." Sltchocum posted a "laughing" smiley, and Jtrbabbit posted "hahahaha I'm laughing in this thread too". I posted a reply that said "Wow, a whole thread devoted to me. I'm so flattered. What's next? Big rallies and demonstrations? "Yankee Maria, go home!"? Mark Beasley posted "no. go away." The thread was removed by a moderator shortly after that.

JillyBean340		#556
Posts: 221 (03/08/08 07:06 PM)	basically, i'm going to like the CD no matter what the cover looks like, because i like jason and his music. the end.

MariaSirota		#557
Posts: 32 (03/08/08 07:14 PM)	youandibothlovejasonmraz wrote: MariaSirota wrote: youandibothlovejasonmraz wrote: all the drawings are done by david shrigley. Creativity is a wonderful thing and I'm happy to see that jason has gone in a direction that will get people talking about music and art. I would be worried if jason was trying to fit in with the other mainstream artists. maria, i think that jason knows exactly what he's doing. He was inspired by david shrigley's work, and thought that artwork from him was a perfect fit for the album. I don't see the harm in that. Creativity is a wonderful thing, no doubt, especially if you understand what it is. Jason definitely "has gone in a direction that will get people talking". But I doubt it will be different from what most people (not just me) are already saying. Especially if they are not Jason's fans yet. It's clear for me as a marketing specialist that Jason's new promotional approach is risky to say the least. But Jason is Jason. What about you? Do you really think THIS is a "perfect fit" between art and his music? If you honestly think so, you should urgently make an appointment with either an optometrist or an otolaryngologist. I hope it's nothing serious. Now, if you think its something principally new and different from what "mainstream artists" have been doing for decades, you are also mistaken. This "challenging" approach ranges from the Beatles "White Album" to Damien Rice's latest albums. The difference is: most of those people have managed to present "simplified" images with a strong sense of appropriateness, tact, and taste. Do your research, and hopefully you will understand the DIFFERENCE. If you do, great. Then you'll be ready to start "talking about music and art". If not... well, then this new album imagery is addressed to you indeed. Not as a complement though, but as a mockery. Don't have any illusions about it. And this is the harm you don't see. No matter what you release into the world (music, art, movies, etc) there are going to be opinions of that particular brand of work on both sides of the spectrum; praise and harsh criticism . Maria, your opinion I respect 100%, but your attitude I do not. And you know what? As a music-radio marketing specialist, it doesn't matter what the fuck the album cover looks like because over 70% of albums sales are now online. And the rest are pretty much illegally downloaded. For jason, to make the majority of the money, is all through touring. And for anyone that has seen a live show, he does a hell of a job. but thank god, it's not money that drives him, it's the music. What's your argument? Nobody should care about Jason's image, including himself, because commercially it doesn't matter anymore? Do you expect THIS attitude to be liked instead of mine?

Mark Beasley		#558
Posts: 74 (03/08/08 07:18 PM)	yes. go away nobody objects.

Katchik99		#559
Posts: 2466 (03/08/08 07:33 PM) and I unfold...	MariaSirota wrote: What's your argument? Nobody should care about Jason's image, including himself, because commercially it doesn't matter anymore? Do you expect THIS attitude to be liked instead of mine? yup yup yup! Jason would be content to play a coffee house in san diego every week versus touring the country. In a world so driven by "image" isn't it nice when someone wants to just focus on the music? I fell in love with Jason cause of his music not his image.

loodleloodlelay		#560
Posts: 6670 (03/08/08 07:33 PM) i've switched to snark-lite.	maria, it didn't sound to me like rikki was trying to argue with you. i hope you can step back and see that she was just making a point, the same way you are. "She was not arguing - she was just making a point"(!!!) Obviously Sara doesn't distinguish between arguing and presenting an argument, albeit there is nothing wrong in either. maybe try reading it objectively and not so you can fight back. i'm sorry you're in such a tough position now but if you want to really participate in the meaningful conversations that make this forum fun (and not grating) you're probably going to have to rethink the way you interact with the other members. I drive your attention to the context in which she writes this. Just read a few posts back. I am suggested to rethink the way I "interact with other members", and she's perfectly happy about the way other members interact with me. i'm not trying to be condescending- (but she isn't trying not to be) i hope you can respect that (and not quote something i said and accompany it with a half-witted insult on my intelligence). Half-witted or witty, whatever I wrote was just an answer to her rude and impertinent attacks. And I did it as cautiously and delicately as possible under the circumstances. i really do want us to all get along. To me, this Rodney King style message indicated her intention to stop hostilities towards me. I ignored whatever was said before that sentence, and answered as positively as I could. edited for format! sheesh!

youandibothlovejasonmraz		#561
Posts: 3020 (03/08/08 07:37 PM) She's a white girl ...in Chicago	MariaSirota wrote: